"The poor need capitalism"

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So you think the Haitians need a stable government more than capitalism?

Like Cuba.

I think it should go without saying that Haiti needs both a stable government and capitalism. Nonetheless, the ingredients necessary to achieve both are far more difficult than merely decreeing it.

"Nation building" is not exactly a subject I'm qualified to discuss at length (must add to my "to-read" list), but I'm not sure that much in Haiti can be achieved without political stability and without universal secular education necessary to sustain it.
 
I don't think it's by accident. The IMF can clearly see that their structural adjustment programmes have been hurting every one nation which they forced to implement it. Western states can clearly see how our MNCs are going into those countries to exploit the ressources and people. Then they argue the States should just negotiate good FDI terms when both actors are simply negotiating on totally different levels. But there is no motion to do anything about it, as it would hurt our economies.
The EU's subsidies for the farming sector and the exports to countries where local producers simply cannot compete these prices, are such a cynical and destructive policy.

Not even talking about futures and derivatives markets which are entirely disconnected from the goods they are trading.

Aid is fundamentally important, but the structures of trade are contradicting any efforts to help.

If you have the time you'll probably like the points that Hernando de Soto makes on property rights in regards to trade and aid in the video I posted. I do resent the barriers the west puts on poor countries. It will have to be a gradual weening off process as countries adapt to trade agreements. It was a difficult and imperfect process just to get NAFTA but all sides don't want to increase barriers because there would be net job losses. It's hilarious that in Canada we have better trade relations with the U.S. than we do with our provinces. As long as politicians can buy votes there will always be some groups that get a sweet deal by protectionism. Farmers don't want to change jobs but I'm glad I can buy South American produce during Canadian winters, so some agreements have been achieved.
 
I definitely need to get into de Soto's work more. He is not even an outsider when he stresses the importance of property rights, rather on the contrary.

We are promoting free trade when we are not willing to grant the same to other nations. We might drive down some tariffs and quotas, but then increase standards and such and just look for non-tariff barriers to trade. And we are quite creative with that one. It's not by accident that the EU's directive on the imports on fruits such as bananas fills books.
But even when we supposedly reduce evils such as quotas and thus promote free trade the effect may be grim on the producers. For classes I just had to prepare a presentation on fair trade and for that read Brewing Justice by Daniel Jaffee. It's quite exemplary how in the name of fair trade the quota system was sabotaged and a system that for decades guaranteed relatively good prices to both producers and consumers broke down overnight. Suddenly the trade was unregulated, quantities exceeded demand and the price depressed by 70% within a couple of months. To this day it hasn't gotten back to pre-1989 prices (even in nominal terms) and is even worse than 100 years ago.
Then the World Bank thought it a grand idea to apply the export-led growth theory to Vietnam and gave massive loans to boast their coffee production. Within ten years Vietnam moved from being the 10th largest coffee producer to becoming world's number two (behind Brazil). In a market that already suffered from oversupply.

And guess which only chance millions of Mexican and other Latin American coffee growers saw to survive? Well, it was two: A) Escaping to the US and B) growing drugs.
Same happened to pretty much any commodity except for oil.

I do agree that a farmer doesn't want to become change jobs, least become unemployed, but these policies kill. He would survive.
 
I definitely need to get into de Soto's work more. He is not even an outsider when he stresses the importance of property rights, rather on the contrary.

Well it's bad when you buy a property but have no legal title to it and the person who sold it to you has lots of money then pays a high priced lawyer and treats you like a squater and ousts you from your property after you paid for it. That's the kind of scams that can occur without the property rights we have. To me in order of importance is politics, the rule of law, then economics. Without good transparent political systems and a decent justice system economic freedom and growth get hampered by the previous two factors.

The reality is that we have to increase trade in increments and excess farmers may have to find new jobs but quick changes to increase or decrease barriers both involve job changes. I'm glad during this recession the urge to increase trade barriers was resisted since countries have less internal buying and selling than in the 1930s so the unemployment rate on exporting countries would be frightful if we went in the direction we did during the Great Depression.

One benefit of lower prices is that consumers have excess money to buy other products and services which creates new jobs. The education system would have to adjust for those changes to help people to move from one industry to another. The average person I heard changes careers 6 times in their working career. For some people it may be higher. This is why employment insurance and individuals having a financial cushion to bridge those gaps are so important.
 
I think it should go without saying that Haiti needs both a stable government and capitalism. Nonetheless, the ingredients necessary to achieve both are far more difficult than merely decreeing it.



absolutely. however, what the Hatians would benefit most from is emigration, and that is something that could be achieved by decree.
 
China is a strange place politically. They have proven that they are the best st making things, that is the Secondary economy.

The UK better at Finance (Tertinary economy). HSBC, sometimes mistaken for a British bank, is in fact Chinese. It's known as the HongKonk and Shanghai Banking Corporation. It is very succesful bank. Howver the Chinese, lack the prestigeous universities like America and Britain have. They've never had anyone who's won the Nobel Prize. The UK and US have.

But what we need to find is the primary level of the economy. Without the primary level of the economy we won't have the raw materials that support the other levels. Even in the Quadintery and service levels, we need raw matterials. The primary level of the economy is worth the least but is the foundation that supports everything else. The primary level of the economy is what comes from the ground
 
Well it's bad when you buy a property but have no legal title to it and the person who sold it to you has lots of money then pays a high priced lawyer and treats you like a squater and ousts you from your property after you paid for it. That's the kind of scams that can occur without the property rights we have. To me in order of importance is politics, the rule of law, then economics. Without good transparent political systems and a decent justice system economic freedom and growth get hampered by the previous two factors.

The reality is that we have to increase trade in increments and excess farmers may have to find new jobs but quick changes to increase or decrease barriers both involve job changes. I'm glad during this recession the urge to increase trade barriers was resisted since countries have less internal buying and selling than in the 1930s so the unemployment rate on exporting countries would be frightful if we went in the direction we did during the Great Depression.

One benefit of lower prices is that consumers have excess money to buy other products and services which creates new jobs. The education system would have to adjust for those changes to help people to move from one industry to another. The average person I heard changes careers 6 times in their working career. For some people it may be higher. This is why employment insurance and individuals having a financial cushion to bridge those gaps are so important.

We just need to make the set of rules such, that we don't grant some people property rights just to have some other loopholes which allow big corporations and such to buy these lands and do the same again.
Well government, laws and economy occur at the same time, pretty much. And in pretty much every country there is all of those present (exceptions prove the rule), so the question is what is going wrong in some countries, and how could we overcome these troubles. A lack of laws, well, that could be overcome. A corrupt or totalitarian government. That's a bit harder to get by. Both a corrupt government and a poor set of rules and it's even harder to stimulate any economic development. But if the institutions are in place and fair we have a good starting point. Yet, they will not be able to gain any if they are dependent on countries that are not genuinely interest in their improving.

We also shouldn't be surprised that nowadays in many parts the Chinese are seen as the better and more honest trading partners than firms from the West. After centuries after failed promises and repeated exploitation it's no surprise there is a certain mistrust in large parts of the world.

No one wants to face more structural unemployment, so subsidies and protections are being kept up. After all, how many farmers are educated in such a variety of professions that they could transition easily? Ok, at least European farmers could start as traders on the stock markets easily, and other Western farmers, too. :wink: But long-term, we won't get around rethinking our structures and to find ways to make trade more fair globally. Otherwise we will either be dealing with aid forever, or we are seeing those countries turn to China and the Near East.

If the benefit of saving on your daily expenses so you can buy your new flat screen more frequently goes at the cost of millions of other people, then I see these costs outweighing that benefit, but this is probably a question of philosophy. In Germany, we had a real wage deflation for the past 15 years. We also pay the lowest share of our income (4 person household) on food, 11%, worldwide. Yet, you will be hard-fetched to find people who say they have a greater disposable income for goods other than their needs for the reason of a scary wage development and the restructuring of employment, i.e. firing workers and re-hiring them on a low-wage basis. Unemployment officially went down, but we didn't have a real job growth. Most were just transferred into this kind of jobs, and to make a living they got some transfer benefits.
Only for a small number have the wages developed in a positive way. They are largely in the knowledge-based sectors.

Our politicians love to praise how knowledge, education and our innovativeness are our greates assets, and how we must invest in education. But it's more preaching than anything, as they are hardly increasing funding for education. They also expect you to be mobile and all, and flexible, but they don't really support you. Leaving aside that in Germany the mentality is totally different. Germans tend to stay in the area where they are born much more than people from other countries. And the politicians aren't even leading by example. Being civil servants (with life-time employment security, comfortable remuneration and very friendly pension schemes) they made a commitment to go where ever they are needed most. Yet, when it came to moving the government from Bonn to the new (yet old) capital of Berlin most of them refused it and complained how impossible it was for the state to ask of them to move 400km east. So now a number of ministries are still located in Bonn, the other half is in Berlin, and they, and their staff, commute. Idiots.
 
China is a strange place politically. They have proven that they are the best st making things, that is the Secondary economy.

The UK better at Finance (Tertinary economy). HSBC, sometimes mistaken for a British bank, is in fact Chinese. It's known as the HongKonk and Shanghai Banking Corporation. It is very succesful bank. Howver the Chinese, lack the prestigeous universities like America and Britain have. They've never had anyone who's won the Nobel Prize. The UK and US have.

But what we need to find is the primary level of the economy. Without the primary level of the economy we won't have the raw materials that support the other levels. Even in the Quadintery and service levels, we need raw matterials. The primary level of the economy is worth the least but is the foundation that supports everything else. The primary level of the economy is what comes from the ground

China's not best at making anything; they just happen to be going through the same Industrial Revolution that Western Europe and America went through over a century ago right now, and, before workers get the rights and freedoms that inevitably come with more advanced Industrialization, the products they make will be cheap because of it.

That is, unless the Chinese Dynastic Cycle feels the need to interfere before that... China is interesting in how it developed, without the intervening geographic factors that Western Europe faced. Western Europe's fragmentation bred the nation states and lack of national unity faced by Europe today (though, as geographic factors lose importance, so has nationalism), whereas China has aimed for a more united Han Chinese society (I'm generalizing here). China and Western Europe faced very similar factors at the dawn of civilization, and their fragmentation or lack thereof has helped and hurt both... since the 1400s, Western Europe has been ahead, but China's development cycle is rather predictable, and it's not a stretch to say that they're nearing the top of another Dynastic Cycle right now.

And Japan is really the synthesis of Western Europe and China, having imported massive amount of Confucian/Han/Chinese culture but facing some geographic factors that make it rather European... and, if you look at history, it's acted very Western European in a lot of ways.

Regarding your statement about primary economics, who is/are "we"?
 
A Janiter invented the hoover by using a sucker and a pillowcase. JK Rowling was a single mum on unemployment benefits. Capatalism is good. Alan Sugar and Richard Bransen came from working class backgrounds. It enables the working class to get there work out of poverty if they have an idea. Socialist Russia didn't, it just left millions in poverty.
This argument is so incredibly stupid. You do realize that for every JK Rowling, there are millions of people I can't even point to as an example because they worked hard their whole life and received little to nothing in return?
 
This argument is so incredibly stupid. You do realize that for every JK Rowling, there are millions of people I can't even point to as an example because they worked hard their whole life and received little to nothing in return?

There are also millions of people who would be exiled to extreme poverty and subsistence farming without the gears of capitalism.

Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is what should really be debated.
 
There are also millions of people who would be exiled to extreme poverty and subsistence farming without the gears of capitalism.

Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is what should really be debated.
There are goods and bads to every type of economy. I think to speak in absolutes about what's best is absurd.
 
Capitalism is just a word. Capital is accrued value. Who owns or controls it an entirely separate question. The way it's being used in this thread, basically yer trickle-down version, well, it's a pretty inefficient way of helping the poor.

And, let it be said, capitalism is not a synonym for democracy. It is just a description of a phenomenon really. To be anti capitalist would be like being anti-purple. The question is how a political economy manages it.
 
I have heard that China are another one of the economic bubbles. The last buble to burst was th hose market brought about by millions of interest free cheap money from the boom of China's economy. The reason why it's so cheap is because of the low value of their currency compared to the dollar and the Euro. Therefore instead bankers decided that this money will be best used to be provided for loans and mortgages rather than savings. It's the subprime mortgage market that brought down the economy.

Before that it was the dot com economic bubble that burst in the early 00's.
 
The last buble to burst was th hose market brought about by millions of interest free cheap money from the boom of China's economy.

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+

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= we're all :( :( :( :( :(
 
I am talking about having an idea. JK Rowling had an idea. Most successful people start off with an idea. She's not really a great writer, but she had an idea.

She also had a state that provided her with the means to support herself while she couldn't, which gave her the benefit of being able to translate this idea into a book. Most people in the world might also have great ideas but are lacking the means to transform them into anything, in part also because this great capitalism as it is today, and the current conventions of world trade, are actively and passively preventing these people's states of accumulating the (financial) power to back them as England could do JK Rowling.

Capitalism is more favourable for innovators. However, in the case of intellectual capital such as books it doesn't need to be capitalism.
 
I agree in that I favor Capitalism over Socialism, but that is a very strong oversimplification in my view. Especially concerning the issue of economic equality, the neoliberal philosophy of trade and its effects on poor countries (free trade, nothing else), driving costs of production to an awful minimum, mainly by seeing manual labour in developing countries as a commodity that is to be exploited (their comparative advantage) etc.

Capitalism is very good when you live on the right side. But capitalism as is is hell, just as is socialism, for those who didn't have that luck in the life lottery.

I thought of this post this morning as I was listening to Glenn Beck... He said, "capitalism is the model that will deliver everyone from poverty". WTF? Is he this detached, is his head this far up his ass?

I'm sure he means "in theory" but still... and I think this type of thinking is the problem. This all or nothing mentality. It has to be completely 100% Capitalism, otherwise you hate capitalism and you're a communist.

When the hell did this type of thinking become adult thinking? I don't get it...
 
In the 1970s. Milton Friedman gained popularity, Bretton Woods broke down and IMF and WorldBank became 'unemployed'. So they looked for alternatives and thought it a nice idea to help poor economies. Not bad per se, but they adopted a very neoclassical approach towards economic development, poverty alleviation and so on, loved free trade and also acted greatly in the interest of Western economies. That's also when the tide turned for the development of a great number of sub-Saharan economies, and after years of progress it was partly turned around again.

Since for many European economies are apparently Socialist, when in fact they just don't get that between the extremes of Socialism and Capitalism there is a great area, and not even the US are at the very end of the spectrum, though closest, their arguments have become quite extreme. And the fact that these Socialist regimes managed to get their society out of absolute poverty, well, who cares about that, honestly? :lmao: Or so it feels.

Glenn Beck has all the qualities of a demagogue.
 
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