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Old 06-30-2020, 11:59 AM   #101
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The problem with the police culture is that it's almost uniformly self-protectionist. They will protect their own regardless of facts or morality. There is really no other comparable profession in my view that is this bad.

maybe the priesthood?

yes, to me, this is much more the issue, and the power of the police unions and the FOP, much more so than whatever perceived individual failings or the attraction of thugs into the force. sure, there are some, but they need to be booted much more easily than is presently possible.

the other real conversation to have is the disarming of the population. there's a reason police carry guns and are frequently on a knife's edge.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:14 PM   #102
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https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-...lice-shooting/

We had a police shooting downtown over the weekend. This is about 8 blocks or so from where i live.

After the shooting, there were immediate protests. My streets were blocked / shutdown again, and a memorial was set up for the victim.

SDPD released the information as quickly as possible, starting with the written explanation and photos of crime scene.

On Sunday we got the body cam footage. Monday we got the above link with street cameras.

This goes to Irvine’s point about a armed society.

The man runs from the cops.
Reaches into his pants and grabs a gun.

I am not sure what else could have been done. Send in social workers to deal with an armed suspect ? Don’t investigate anyone ever???

The man is still in the ICU.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:23 PM   #103
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This goes to Irvine’s point about a armed society.

The man runs from the cops.
Reaches into his pants and grabs a gun.

I am not sure what else could have been done. Send in social workers to deal with an armed suspect ? Don’t investigate anyone ever???
i think the counter-argument to that is that people are probably much less likely to try to run away and then pull out a gun on an unarmed (or non-lethally armed) social worker who is there specifically to try to help them than they would be around an armed police officer who has the authority to kill them without warning.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:26 PM   #104
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i think the counter-argument to that is that people are probably much less likely to pull out a gun on an unarmed (or non-lethally armed) social worker who is there specifically to try to help them than they would be around an armed police officer who has the authority to kill them without warning.


i wish this were true. good luck finding unarmed social workers willing to enter situations with armed suspects.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:28 PM   #105
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unarmed social workers already regularly deal with people in distress while having no idea whether or not that person is carrying a weapon, and they still perform their jobs admirably.

obviously you would send cops to arrest a guy suspected of armed robbery like what happened in the situation BEAL posted, though. based on the video that one appears justified.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:42 PM   #106
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I think any mental health situation that the police should be last line of defense. Drugs, alcohol fit into mental health.

You creep into violent crimes and i don’t know how you send anyone but the cops.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:44 PM   #107
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I think any mental health situation that the police should be last line of defense. Drugs, alcohol fit into mental health.

You creep into violent crimes and i don’t know how you send anyone but the cops.


Yes.

It did not seem like the situation you described was a mental health situation.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:58 PM   #108
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yeah i'm thinking about a situation like rayshard brooks, where the call was a guy asleep in his car in a drive-thru. brooks was cooperating fully with the cops for over 40 minutes and didn't even appear to think about resisting or fleeing until the cops decided to put handcuffs on him. i can't help but think the outcome of that situation would have been different if, say, a mental health worker had gone to the scene with the intent to help the man instead of armed police.

that's not to say that we shouldn't punish drunk driving at all but i feel like you can tow the guy's car and drive him home safely and issue him a summons while also providing some advice and resources for rehab and detox options. i don't want to act like i'm an expert on any of this stuff but i do believe fervently (and so does my 30-year RCMP veteran stepmother, for the record) that cops carry way too many guns, even here in canada. you can't disarm the police entirely but the vast majority of police work doesn't require a weapon at all, let alone a gun.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:58 PM   #109
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There have been tons of investments into police training. Not everywhere, but plenty of places have seen a lot of resources put into increased training. It doesn't help. I don't see any solution to this that doesn't involved drastically defunding them and disarming them.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:01 PM   #110
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yeah i'm thinking about a situation like rayshard brooks, where the call was a guy asleep in his car in a drive-thru. brooks was cooperating fully with the cops for over 40 minutes and didn't even appear to think about resisting or fleeing until the cops decided to put handcuffs on him. i can't help but think the outcome of that situation would have been different if, say, a mental health worker had gone to the scene with the intent to help the man instead of armed police.

that's not to say that we shouldn't punish drunk driving at all but i feel like you can tow the guy's car and drive him home safely and issue him a summons while also providing some advice and resources for rehab and detox options. i don't want to act like i'm an expert on any of this stuff but i do believe fervently (and so does my 30-year RCMP veteran stepmother, for the record) that cops carry way too many guns, even here in canada. you can't disarm the police entirely but the vast majority of police work doesn't require a weapon at all, let alone a gun.
He asked them if he could leave the car in the parking lot and walk to his sister's house nearby before they ever tried to put handcuffs on him.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:03 PM   #111
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yeah i'm thinking about a situation like rayshard brooks, where the call was a guy asleep in his car in a drive-thru. brooks was cooperating fully with the cops for over 40 minutes and didn't even appear to think about resisting or fleeing until the cops decided to put handcuffs on him. i can't help but think the outcome of that situation would have been different if, say, a mental health worker had gone to the scene with the intent to help the man instead of armed police.

that's not to say that we shouldn't punish drunk driving at all but i feel like you can tow the guy's car and drive him home safely and issue him a summons while also providing some advice and resources for rehab and detox options. i don't want to act like i'm an expert on any of this stuff but i do believe fervently (and so does my 30-year RCMP veteran stepmother, for the record) that cops carry way too many guns, even here in canada. you can't disarm the police entirely but the vast majority of police work doesn't require a weapon at all, let alone a gun.


Yes. Agreed.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:30 PM   #112
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There have been tons of investments into police training. Not everywhere, but plenty of places have seen a lot of resources put into increased training. It doesn't help. I don't see any solution to this that doesn't involved drastically defunding them and disarming them.


Will you also disarm American citizens first ?

There is no way you can have a unarmed police force in this country with 400 million guns in circulation.

Even if sweeping gun reform were to pass i still don’t see how you disarm the police.

I think the more sensible solution is to not send armed police into EVERY situation.

And other countries have police forces and they are just fine.

The issue is what’s been mentioned above. It’s a culture issue that refuses to change. Maybe training doesn’t resolve it initially but it makes sense to break up the network that enables this behavior
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:36 PM   #113
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He asked them if he could leave the car in the parking lot and walk to his sister's house nearby before they ever tried to put handcuffs on him.
But they can't do that when he was impaired. Could easily have walked back from sister's house 15 minutes later, jumped in the car and killed someone.
Taking him in was the right move, shooting him obviously was not.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:03 PM   #114
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Will you also disarm American citizens first ?

There is no way you can have a unarmed police force in this country with 400 million guns in circulation.

Even if sweeping gun reform were to pass i still don’t see how you disarm the police.

I think the more sensible solution is to not send armed police into EVERY situation.

And other countries have police forces and they are just fine.

The issue is what’s been mentioned above. It’s a culture issue that refuses to change. Maybe training doesn’t resolve it initially but it makes sense to break up the network that enables this behavior
https://qz.com/602682/the-case-for-d...-police-force/

I'm not going to pretend it's easy. America's gun culture has the whole situation pretty fucked. But I don't think any of this gets off the ground unless you start disarming the police first.
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Old 06-30-2020, 05:14 PM   #115
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I’m curious how a unarmed force would handle a active shooter ? Say something like the Pulse Nightclub shooting.

Or is there still a swat team for situations like this ?
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:15 PM   #116
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I’m curious how a unarmed force would handle a active shooter ? Say something like the Pulse Nightclub shooting.

Or is there still a swat team for situations like this ?


Oh you mean the pulse nightclub shooting where the police waited outside for like five hours as everyone inside bled out? Terrible example.

Unarmed police forces all across the world have armaments and the ability to arm a unit tactically with strategic response times built in. The concept is that the officer would need authority to arm, such as a suspect reported to be armed. Doesn’t have to be SWAT. It just means they leave the weapons secured inside the trunk of select cruisers.
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:10 AM   #117
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I feel like we’re trying to force a solution to a reality that doesn’t exist.

I get that other countries will authorize firearms when they have problems escalate and I’m jealous that it seems to be few and far between (at least what makes the world news)

Considering the gun violence and crime here in the States, we’d be authorizing weapons all day every day where it’d probably make sense to just give them a gun again.

On CNN two cops were shot, one killed for a traffic stop. Disarming the police doesn’t stop the gun violence here.

I don’t even know if there can be a solution. Our politicians are scared to pass laws to restrict because they’ll get voted out and replaced with people who’ll roll everything back. And the cycle of death continues.

We’re seeing the same thing play out over a virus. How dare you try and regulate my health!
America = kill or be killed if i wanna
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:25 AM   #118
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Even “traffic stops” are part of why cops are targets. They’re targets and people learn to hate cops over power trips like “do you know why I pulled you over?”

You can call it wishful thinking, but I’d say it’s simple fact that were the cops unarmed, they would not be targets.

I literally saw this all the time. Shit like a (brown) kid setting off fireworks in the city center in Leicester to intentionally trigger the police, and the cops beginning to chase him before giving up maybe 20 yards down the line because it wasn’t worth it. In this country, that’s how you get tased which leads to being shot when you’re not a fan of being tased. That’s how you get 3 officers bearing down full weight on you and a double dosage of ketamine. It’s simply because they can, they will. But they can’t do these things as willingfully if they’re not armed. Nor would they want to unless they had to.

The point of strategic armament is that officers are liable by protocol for usage of force. Would more situations call for armament? Sure. Does “black guy acting suspicious” call for armament? No. Is an unarmed officer likely to arrest or subdue an unarmed person over a non-threatening crime? No. And as stated before, unarmed civil servants engage mentally unwell people all. The. Time.

And I’m not over your infuriating Pulse comment. You simply underline the most fucking tragic part of it all. The guns aren’t there to protect you. They’re there to protect the police officers. People died because the police were not willing to act immediately, and they were hailed as heroes. People ignored the valid lawsuits.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:48 AM   #119
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I’m sorry you’re angry with what i said.

When we have a society that is in love with guns, and a protection force that has to match OR go above and beyond what the risk calls for we will have situations like this.

I don’t know how to resolve a active shooter. My assumption is police train for these situations and make the best judgement with each case.

No one is going to run into a building with an active shooter unarmed. Clearly people won’t do it when they have guns.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:07 PM   #120
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I’m sorry you’re angry with what i said.

When we have a society that is in love with guns, and a protection force that has to match OR go above and beyond what the risk calls for we will have situations like this.

I don’t know how to resolve a active shooter. My assumption is police train for these situations and make the best judgement with each case.

No one is going to run into a building with an active shooter unarmed. Clearly people won’t do it when they have guns.


Let me be clear here... when you bring up an “active shooter” in regards to “disarm the police” you do not seem to understand the concept of strategic response.

All I can do is continue to implore you to do research on other nations that have this issue.

There is a minimum amount of dead people that an active killer can kill regardless of police armament, and that number exists to some value n in unarmed countries, and some number m in armed countries (where m > n). Pulse is a perfect example where m is large, and initial police have absolutely no power over the situation. The armed police fled the perimeter and waited for SWAT to arrive. SWAT waited for hours before breaching the club, out of their own fear.

You seem to think strategic response isn’t a possibility? I don’t know what you’re getting at. But strategic response is proven capable of providing an armed unit to a situation as fast as an unarmed unit, because the guns are still in the freaking cars they drive. They just don’t have the authority to equip them whenever they want.
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