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Jive Turkey

ONE love, blood, life
Joined
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AEON said:
Hey Jive,

The "truth" of the New Testament comes from a light that not everyone sees - for one reason or another.

I'm sure you've read you fair share of Bible over the years - but I was hoping you could indulge me to read the Gospel of John just as if you were reading a story (it would only take one night). If you can - please write down some adjectives that would describe Jesus as you read his words and follow him around Israel. I'm not trying to convert you - I have no power to do such a thing - I am curious what you would think about Jesus after read that Gospel.

I promise to read any other similar amount of pages on any topic (that is wife and family safe) that you want me to.
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I will take you up on this, but on another night.
I'm not sure my opinion on Jesus will change (as my current opinion on Jesus is that, as he has been presented to us, he's a pretty solid dude). But that doesn't speak to the historical fact or provenance of the bible or the stories within.

As far as the light within, that sort of reasoning holds little weight with me; it's unfalsifiable and circular... but I'm sure that's no surprise to you ;)
 
Jive Turkey said:
I will take you up on this, but on another night.
I'm not sure my opinion on Jesus will change (as my current opinion on Jesus is that, as he has been presented to us, he's a pretty solid dude). But that doesn't speak to the historical fact or provenance of the bible or the stories within.

As far as the light within, that sort of reasoning holds little weight with me; it's unfalsifiable and circular... but I'm sure that's no surprise to you ;)
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I do hope you do read it. And selfishly, I hope you give me something to read.

Yes, I know the the logic is circular - if it is logical at all. For me - logic only took me so far, well pretty far.... As in String Theory - some things only make sense after something, even a theory, fills the void.
 
Oh, I ended up reading it last night, Aeon.
My opinion on Jesus really didn't change; those verses are well known, so I had read nearly all of it before, though admittedly in fragments (curious why you had me read that one instead of something more 'obscure'). He's perhaps a little more curt than I tend to remember, if I'm being perfectly honest. Stoic. errr a bit of a messiah complex :p But overall a thoughtful, well intentioned man
 
Jive Turkey said:
Oh, I ended up reading it last night, Aeon.
My opinion on Jesus really didn't change; those verses are well known, so I had read nearly all of it before, though admittedly in fragments (curious why you had me read that one instead of something more 'obscure'). He's perhaps a little more curt than I tend to remember, if I'm being perfectly honest. Stoic. errr a bit of a messiah complex :p But overall a thoughtful, well intentioned man
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I just wanted to see if the word "zealot" came to mind when you read it.

Thank you so much for taking the time. I chose John because 1) I wanted you to read about Jesus and his hear his words in one "package" - meaning not cut and paste and it is still my favorite of the four gospels and 2) he does make Messiah claims (whether you accept that of course is up to you - but many seem to deny he ever claimed to be the Messiah and he most certainly did).

Galatians is a good short read and perhaps a bit more obscure if you're ever feeling crazy...

Do you have a blog or article you want me to read? That was our deal! Don't cheat me!
 
Zealot definitely doesn't come to mind. Not sure it applies to someone apparently so passive.

Like I say though, I think they're nice, sometimes beautiful, stories. Emphasis on the last bit ;) (not meant as a dig)

AEON said:
Do you have a blog or article you want me to read? That was our deal! Don't cheat me!
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I've been thinking about this!
I'm not sure what yet though. Most of the things I read are full length books - at least the kind of stuff that sticks with me - so that's not fair per the deal. You know what though? I'm not sure where you stand on a lot of things yet. Evolution? The beginning of the Universe? There's a great book (and hour long lecture online) by Lawrence Krauss outlining how it's well within the laws of physics - expected even - for the Universe to come into being from nothing at all.... You may have already seen it.
Or maybe just a short essay by Hitchens or Harris about religion in general? What are you up for?

Oh, the best thing I read last year... and again, it's a little long as far as the deal goes (still only 100 pages).... was Mortality by Christopher Hitchens. Just a collection of his essays from the time of his diagnosis with cancer to his death. I had a good friend die of cancer around this time last year and read the book shortly afterward. It really struck a chord with me. If you're curious about the sort of existential thoughts from a non believer, and in particular one facing a quickly approaching death, I couldn't recommend it more.
 
Jive Turkey said:
Zealot definitely doesn't come to mind. Not sure it applies to someone apparently so passive.

Like I say though, I think they're nice, sometimes beautiful, stories. Emphasis on the last bit ;) (not meant as a dig)



I've been thinking about this!
I'm not sure what yet though. Most of the things I read are full length books - at least the kind of stuff that sticks with me - so that's not fair per the deal. You know what though? I'm not sure where you stand on a lot of things yet. Evolution? The beginning of the Universe? There's a great book (and hour long lecture online) by Lawrence Krauss outlining how it's well within the laws of physics - expected even - for the Universe to come into being from nothing at all.... You may have already seen it.
Or maybe just a short essay by Hitchens or Harris about religion in general? What are you up for?

Oh, the best thing I read last year... and again, it's a little long as far as the deal goes (still only 100 pages).... was Mortality by Christopher Hitchens. Just a collection of his essays from the time of his diagnosis with cancer to his death. I had a good friend die of cancer around this time last year and read the book shortly afterward. It really struck a chord with me. If you're curious about the sort of existential thoughts from a non believer, and in particular one facing a quickly approaching death, I couldn't recommend it more.
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I LOVE Mr. Hitchens! I obviously don't agree with him on Christianity and God - but he is one my favorite debaters of all time.

Regarding evolution and Astro-physics - since I do not take Genesis literally I see no contradiction as I am always fascinated by everything from String Theory to Dark Matter/Energy.

I will find Mortality and read it! Thanks!
 
AEON said:
I LOVE Mr. Hitchens! I obviously don't agree with him on Christianity and God - but he is one my favorite debaters of all time.

Regarding evolution and Astro-physics - since I do not take Genesis literally I see no contradiction as I am always fascinated by everything from String Theory to Dark Matter/Energy.

I will find Mortality and read it! Thanks!
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I kinda figured that about you re evolution and astrophysics. Pleasantly surprised to hear you like Hitchens. I think you'll find Mortality quite interesting. I'd love to hear your thoughts if you get around to it

I'll try to think of something a little more concise in the mean time.

thanks for posting the vid, Cobbo!

Jealous you're going to see him talk. I keep seeing him tweeting from Australia. The guy must go there every other week
 
I think he was here promoting a book or something, he was on some talk shows, but yeah he's been here a while. Maybe he's here on a project, or lives here

Jive Turkey said:
Oh no, Cobbler. William Lane Craig is a Twat
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I'll be the judge of that ;)

(judging by the bios I'll be siding with Krauss I reckon but really interested to hear another perspective, don't know Craig)
 
I think Craig is a quality debater. He is not at the level of Hitchens (who is really?) and he comes across sort of cold and redundant, but he does make some solid arguments even if you have to make assumptions on his premises.

When it comes to these sorts of debates, I try my best to separate my personal beliefs (yes, I'm a Christian and yes I would like to see that slam dunk comment) and simply enjoy the art of debate.

Over the years - since I know very few people are actually persuading one way or another in these discussions - I simply enjoy them as great debates. That's why I really learned to appreciate Hitchens. (And he will take on anyone).

EDIT: BTW - Love the "hitch-slap" highlights on YouTube
 
cobl04 said:
This is the link Jive is talking about - www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo‎

It's really awesome, would love to see what the more religious folk here think of it. I'm seeing Krauss in a couple of weeks at this event, really looking forward to it - Is it reasonable to believe there is a God? | Life, the Universe and Nothing
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I'm about 1/3 of the way through. So far, he's fairly engaging.

One small point - he lumps all religions together a little too easily. It seems he is attacking the more literalist/fundamentalist cosmological view - while there a quite a few traditions that don't have that mindset. Scientists are not the only ones that like the word Mystery - as it is peppered throughout the New Testament.

As a Christian, when I come across great scientific breakthroughs or fascinating theories - I see these (as someone once said) as signposts on a road through a foggy night, I know they're leading into a certain direction, but I can't see the destination. That is Mystery. And the excitement is in the driving - the moving forward - of expanding our knowledge and understanding of our universe (or multiverse perhaps).

As a Christian I do not need, nor do I think I can ever attain - ALL ANSWERS. So, Dr. Krauss is wrong about this Christian at least. But I understand that for the sake of discussion he needs to go after the most visible stereotype of Christianity - the science hating Fundamentalist.

What I do know - on a subjective, "un-provable" level is that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God. I had reasons that brought me to His door (mostly Platonic philosophy), but it was only by faith that I entered it.

And I think that if anything else - Quantum Physics now teaches us is that just about ANYTHING is possible, that our old way of understanding reality no longer applies - and because of this, a Virgin Birth and Miracles fall within this circle of possibility.

Anyway - I'll try to finish the rest of the video know - he is an engaging speaker.
 
AEON said:
I think Craig is a quality debater. He is not at the level of Hitchens (who is really?) and he comes across sort of cold and redundant, but he does make some solid arguments even if you have to make assumptions on his premises.
Click to expand...

All the arrogance of Hitchens, none of the charm or intellect. He only argues with assumptions, false conclusions, and a clear misunderstanding of the science he's trying to debate. It's word play and little else.

I also appreciate the debates for debate's sake (and yes, the Hitchslap compilations are glorious), but there are better debaters on the religious side than Craig
 
AEON said:
I'm about 1/3 of the way through. So far, he's fairly engaging.

One small point - he lumps all religions together a little too easily. It seems he is attacking the more literalist/fundamentalist cosmological view - while there a quite a few traditions that don't have that mindset. Scientists are not the only ones that like the word Mystery - as it is peppered throughout the New Testament.

As a Christian, when I come across great scientific breakthroughs or fascinating theories - I see these (as someone once said) as signposts on a road through a foggy night, I know they're leading into a certain direction, but I can't see the destination. That is Mystery. And the excitement is in the driving - the moving forward - of expanding our knowledge and understanding of our universe (or multiverse perhaps).

As a Christian I do not need, nor do I think I can ever attain - ALL ANSWERS. So, Dr. Krauss is wrong about this Christian at least. But I understand that for the sake of discussion he needs to go after the most visible stereotype of Christianity - the science hating Fundamentalist.
Click to expand...

But the very core of his argument is that to place a god at the beginning of the universe is unneeded and overcomplicated. In that sense, lumping all Christians - and all religious people in general - together is just.

And I think that if anything else - Quantum Physics now teaches us is that just about ANYTHING is possible, that our old way of understanding reality no longer applies - and because of this, a Virgin Birth and Miracles fall within this circle of possibility.
Click to expand...

This is a bit of a Deepak Chopra style interpretation of Quantum Physics. I don't think you'll find any theoretical physicist who will agree with you. The strangeness of the quantum world doesn't leave the door open for virgin births or miracles.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the video though!
 
Krauss has a new paper coming out soon regarding dark matter and dark energy. He seems pretty excited about it; I'm intrigued
 
Jive Turkey said:
But the very core of his argument is that to place a god at the beginning of the universe unneeded and overcomplicated. In that sense, lumping all Christians - and all religious people in general - together is just
Click to expand...
That may be the current viewpoint, but that can certainly change with more knowledge. Again, I come from a view that you can not objectively prove God.


Jive Turkey said:
This is a bit of a Deepak Chopra style interpretation of Quantum Physics.
Click to expand...
Ouch! I've been Turkey-slapped!


Jive Turkey said:
I don't think you'll find any theoretical physicist who will agree with you.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but if I wanted to spend the time (and maybe I will some day) - I could gather enough of the current quotes on the reality of universe to show that Yes, it is possible or it least not impossible.

Jive Turkey said:
The strangeness of the quantum world doesn't leave the door open for virgin births or miracles.
Click to expand...
How could it not?

Jive Turkey said:
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the video though!
Click to expand...

Still making progress...almost there...
 
AEON said:
Ouch! I've been Turkey-slapped!
Click to expand...

hahaha sorry. Was a bit harsh


Perhaps, but if I wanted to spend the time (and maybe I will some day) - I could gather enough of the current quotes on the reality of universe to show that Yes, it is possible or it least not impossible.

How could it not?



Still making progress...almost there...
Click to expand...

Because quantum physics only applies to the very small. The macro universe still abides by the same laws it always has. The moon doesn't disappear into a cloud of probabilities when we stop observing it.
I'd be interested in seeing some quotes, however
 
Summary of video: I liked his review of how we came to our present cosmological view. I've seen it from many other presenters and TV shows but he got right to the point and tied it all together very well.

I LOVED his slides on the view of the expanding universe - "Everywhere is the center of the universe"

I think he made my point accidentally when he talked about the priest Lemaitre and the Pope - and to not mix science and religion. Dr. Krauss states that either side of the Does God Exist argument can take science to validate their beliefs. A great point. Strange he doesn't seem to follow his own point.

"Quantum fluctuations can produce a universe" - I did not see how he proved that. Perhaps it's too big of a discussion for his lecture here, but I would like to see how he came to this conclusion. In his own short proof - he does seem to infer pre-existing energy.

There seems to be assumption in this talk that only matter "exists" - that energy somehow does not count. Am I correct? If so, how would this tie into another Quantum Physicist's view, Dr. Susskind (I posted a video from him a few weeks back) - that almost all of the universe is energy, and that all of the actual matter would fit into the size of a pea.

I loved the point that the static of the TV when it went off the air was 1 percent background radiation from the Big Bang. Makes the movie Poltergeist even that much more creepy.

He's covering dark matter and dark energy fairly well - would love to hear more of it.

At about the 49 minute mark, he concedes that the God created view of the universe is repugnant, but may be true. He just kind of tosses it away and moves on, although it is a major concession in my point of view.

Overall, a great way to spend and hour or so. I love these topics. I think we live in a wonderfully mysterious universe and appreciate that minds like Dr. Krauss can reveal a little more of that to us.

In the end, science will never disprove God - nor will it ever prove God. So, when a theorical physicists tries to do it, it comes across more as vindictive. I would rather they just continue to expand our shared understanding of what the universe is and how it works. That's cool.
 
LOL - I just read the thread title, not realizing we where in a Fox News thread...I guess we got a bit off point.

My original point (in this thread in response to Dr. Aslan's book) was that it seems unlikely that Jesus could be considered a "zealot" when you read the texts about Jesus in the New Testament (like it or not - it is all we have along with a and historian (Josephus) comments). Anything else is simply conjecture. He could have just as easily claimed Jesus was really a Buddhist, or a pirate, or secretly invented baseball in the desert...
 
AEON said:
My original point (in this thread in response to Dr. Aslan's book) was that it seems unlikely that Jesus could be considered a "zealot" when you read the texts about Jesus in the New Testament (like it or not - it is all we have along with a and historian (Josephus) comments). Anything else is simply conjecture. He could have just as easily claimed Jesus was really a Buddhist, or a pirate, or secretly invented baseball in the desert...
Click to expand...


Not a 'zealot' by our standards in 2013. But part of a movement at that time, in that place. One might benefit from leaning what context Dr. Aslan is using the term.

Much of the point of the book is that there is very little written history of Jesus during his lifetime. The Romans, who did keep records, mention many historical figures, but not Jesus. Jesus was not much of a 'stand out' until many years after his death. And then the writings we have, New Testament, are from people that are in a movement with an agenda.
I will cede the point, that the agenda could be just an accurate and true retelling of the facts.


This is pretty good

He could have just as easily claimed Jesus was really a Buddhist, or a pirate, or secretly invented baseball in the desert...
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Bsck on the FoxNews theme :up:
 
deep said:
Not a 'zealot' by our standards in 2013. But part of a movement at that time, in that place. One might benefit from leaning what context Dr. Aslan is using the term.

...........

Bsck on the FoxNews theme :up:
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1) One (or is it two?) of Jesus' apostles is known as a Zealot.
Simon the Zealot, IIRC.
2) This Jesus/science conversation is infinitely more interesting than FOX News bullshit. So I'd hope it would find it's way to a new thread.
 
Reza's book seems to be pretty well researched. I'd like to find a good book about the origins of Islam, about the times, politics and people. And the main guy, Mohammed.
Reza's book, "No God but God" might be good. There may be others, does anyone have a recommendation?
 
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