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Old 01-23-2009, 12:20 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by phillyfan26 View Post
Did I suggest that you use the first and last months? Absolutely not. Don't put words in my mouth.
If you look back your emphasis was the starting point and the ending point, and I simply pointed out that your ignoring a vast amount of data and the admnistrations performance by doing that.

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An average is just as meaningless.
If that were the case, no one would use them, yet people in all walks of life do, especially when assessing someone or somethings performance over a set period of time.

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Both of those suggestions are too simple. You need more detail. For starters, each of those statistics, with information for each year from 2001 to 2008
The average is derived from all that detail from every month from 2001 to 2008. Cherry picking your favorite months to support your conclusions is not an accurate way to assess the Bush Presidency.

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The last two to three years are the most important because they're the years in which his policy had the most impact.
You might be able to get away with arguing that his policies had a less of an impact in his first year, but thats it.

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And that paints a totally different picture of the situation.
Certainly, if you cherry pick the worst months of ANY administration when it comes to economic numbers, you will be able to paint a totally different picture, but certainly not one that is accurate or correct.
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Old 01-23-2009, 09:33 AM   #322
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I do think for the most part a lot of the Bush/Blair alliances came about through a "go along with it, have some sort of say in it, keep damage to a minimum" mentality. Although we're not completely blameless and people forget that.

the world is expecting America to sort everything out again. Obama has SO much pressure on his shoulders and I don't envy the man.
But I do think he'll restore their standing in the world somewhat And I totally agree about how we're so connected with the country - especially in terms of the British empire.

Do people in the US realise how in thrall the rest of us are to Obama, too? I genuinely want to know the answer to that - it feels like he's been elected as leader of the world, not just America.

Absolutely! Well said on all points

I feel the same, about world Leader now, because the world will sure be watching his next move VERY closely.
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Old 01-23-2009, 04:34 PM   #323
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If you look back your emphasis was the starting point and the ending point, and I simply pointed out that your ignoring a vast amount of data and the admnistrations performance by doing that.

If that were the case, no one would use them, yet people in all walks of life do, especially when assessing someone or somethings performance over a set period of time.

The average is derived from all that detail from every month from 2001 to 2008. Cherry picking your favorite months to support your conclusions is not an accurate way to assess the Bush Presidency.

You might be able to get away with arguing that his policies had a less of an impact in his first year, but thats it.

Certainly, if you cherry pick the worst months of ANY administration when it comes to economic numbers, you will be able to paint a totally different picture, but certainly not one that is accurate or correct.
This post is positively absurd for a number of reasons:

1. I explained to you already that it was not my emphasis. My emphasis is that more detail is the ideal.

2. Just because people in all walks of life do something doesn't mean they're correct. There's a reason the phrase, "lies, damn lies, and statistics" came about. They can be extremely misleading. In this case, an average for eight years of economic change is misleading because of how much things changed over the eight years.

3. What? Derived from detail? That completely misses the point. The average levels out the highs and lows and does not display trends. And what's this cherry picking? I never said something like, "Look at September 2004, October 2007, and September 2008!" I said show the GDP and unemployment rates for each year from 2001 to 2008. I never said pick out specific months to make Bush look bad.

4. Sure, that's fine. 2002-2008, then. Detail for each of those years. I don't mind.

5. What is the matter with your reading comprehension? Never did I imply I wanted to cherry pick anything. I want more detail for the entirety of his administration.
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Old 01-24-2009, 08:49 PM   #324
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Getting back to the topic of legacy





There is a stark difference on how Clinton left the office of President to Bush vs the way
Bush left the office to Obama:




Bush twins offer advice for Sasha, Malia - Inauguration- msnbc.com




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Staff emotional as President George W. Bush passes reins to Barack Obama
BY KENNETH R. BAZINET and RICHARD SISK
DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU

Updated Tuesday, January 20th 2009, 4:06 PM


Monsivais/AP

President George W. Bush and First Lady Laura Bush pass the White House reins to incoming President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama.

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WERE YOU THERE? SENDS US YOUR PHOTOS, STORIES

WASHINGTON - President Bush took a final solo stroll on the South Lawn and later blew a departing kiss to the White House Tuesday to end two terms marked by crisis at home and abroad.

As huge crowds eager to see his back overflowed the National Mall, Bush was for the last time the First Gentleman in graciously welcoming his hugely more popular successor, who was soon to call the time of the 43rd President a "collective failure."

"Hey, hey," said a smiling Bush as he joined with First Lady Laura Bush to greet President-elect Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle, at the North Portico of the White House. "Morning, morning," both Obamas said.

Bush put his arm around Obama and briskly patted him several times on the back to usher the group inside for the traditional morning coffee before the inauguration.

Michelle Obama brought a gift for the outgoing First Lady in a white box decorated with a red ribbon. It was a pen inscribed with the date Jan. 20, 2009.

The pentup emotion of the moment was too much for some of Bush's loyal staff, who stayed true as the ratings of their boss sank to historic lows.

Laura Bush cheerily waved and said "Bye, Dana" to White House press secretary Dana Perino as she entered the White House after greeting the Obamas. The moment was too much for Perino, who burst into tears.

White House officials said the Bush administration was over. There would be no last-minute executive orders or pardons, and the remaining staff began turning in their BlackBerrys.

Moving vans began pulling up right after Bush and Obama left for the Capitol at 11 a.m. Before leaving, Bush left behind a note for Obama in the top drawer of the Oval Office desk.

The custom is not to disclose the contents, but Perino said the general theme was "about the fabulous new chapter President-elect Obama is about to start, and that he wishes him the very best."

Bush slept late - for him - on the last day of work, arriving at the Oval Office at 7 a.m. rather than the usual 6 a.m. He took phone calls from Secretary of State Rice, national security adviser Stephen Hadley, former White House chief of staff Andrew Card and T.D. Jakes, the pastor of a Texas megachurch who has often spoken at Bush events.

Perino said Bush was in good spirits. "He's the President of the United States, the way he always is. He hasn't changed," but "he gave me a big kiss on the forehead."

Following the inaugural address, the latest former President and Laura Bush boarded a Marine helicopter at the Capitol's East Front to Andrews Air Force Base. In a break with tradition, President Obama and Vice President Biden and their wives lined up on the steps to wave goodbye.

The Bushes rode home aboard a 747 from the Air Force One fleet now dubbed Special Air Mission 28000 since he was no longer President.

"I gave it my all," a jovial Bush told a welcoming crowd in Midland, Tex. "Sometimes what I did wasn't popular, but that's okay. Popularity is as fleeting as the Texas wind. When I get home and look in the mirror tonight, I'm not gonna regret what I see."
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:19 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post

There is a stark difference on how Clinton left the office of President to Bush vs the way
Bush left the office to Obama:

There's also a stark difference between how Clinton left the state of the country vs. the way Bush left the state of the country, but hey as long as Bush didn't remove the O's from the keyboards I guess it's all good right?
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:29 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
That might help a little, but as those of us who've been around FYM for a while know, being able to cite supporting sources of information doesn't necessarily mean your argument is more sound. Especially in the age of the internet.
Also, not all debates turn on 'evidence' (in the sense of reams of statistics or what have you). Some turn on a chain of logic, or follow from first principles. I prefer these because I'm lazy and because 'evidence' is very malleable.
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:43 PM   #327
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More for the Bush Legacy

Familicide


Ohio family found dead in suspected murder-suicide - CNN.com

Ervin Antonio Lupoe Kills Wife, 5 Kids, Himself After Being Fired
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:49 AM   #328
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Came across this little gem -

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There are no innocent bystanders when our money and/or rhetoric support the world's most powerful military and the corporate status quo. But if we just keep telling ourselves it's all Bush's fault, we can sleep better.
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Old 01-30-2009, 04:14 AM   #329
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As recently as 2002, a majority of states were Republican in orientation. By 2005, movement in the Democratic direction was becoming apparent, and this continued in 2006. That dramatic turnaround is clearly an outgrowth of Americans' dissatisfaction with the way President George W. Bush governed the country.
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:39 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by partygirlvox View Post
My only worry is that now, after years of using America as that scapegoat, the world is expecting America to sort everything out again. Obama has SO much pressure on his shoulders and I don't envy the man.
But I do think he'll restore their standing in the world somewhat
Cues up: Presssure/Billy Joel, Too Much Pressure/The Specials

I've been praying for him & his family. & the Bidens, too.

I do think he will restore some of our standing in the world in the short & long run.


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Originally Posted by partygirlvox View Post
Do people in the US realise how in thrall the rest of us are to Obama, too? I genuinely want to know the answer to that - it feels like he's been elected as leader of the world, not just America.
Well, some of us do, who have the inclination, and time to pay attention to the rest of the world.

( Tho my feeling is that if you can afford a radio/ esp a portable you can have on you walking about to various places/things to do you can pay attention to Public Radio here in the States at least some of the time --- even if NPR has gotten a more conservative in the past several years. $$ pressure perhaps & the right-wing guy who was put in the FCC.

Hopefully this might change back. :fingerscrossed: Especially for those of us with less access to the Net (I have no net at home), or can't, or refuse to pay for satellite radio, as well. Can't afford Cable either. )

Anyway.......
Did you ever see the net sites "We're Sorry" Americans apologizing to The World that Bush was "elected" a 2nd time, and "Apologies Accepted" from The World back to America.

Multiple feelings elecited >> very moving, and often very funny, and sweet.
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:41 PM   #331
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the USA Major Political Parties Map

btw.....uh, um....? Strongbow.....et al.......

We Dems WON 11 Bush /Republican States...... .. along with our expected wins.

We have a MANDATE !

With SUCH an outpouring of voters the Neo-cons couldn't steal it THIS time!

oh, and PGV ....
I don't expect Obama to do everything I'd like him to change from W & dick's Admin, nor start up some of the things I'd him to, or that the Dem Congress will promote.....

SO I know I'll be upset with him, feel pretty good, and absolutely be very happy with some of what he will do/promote (setting tone etc) over the next 8 years.

But he's already changed things that make me ecstatic!
So off to a good start in many ways!
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:49 PM   #332
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Bin Laden is still living and breathing.

George W. FAILED

Please see my reply in "The Open Letter to George Bush" and that may make people understand my feelings for W. and this from an ex republican
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:44 PM   #333
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Monument to Bush > shines at Iraqi orphanage - CNN.com

Well, at least he will get a monument in Iraq.
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Old 02-02-2009, 11:57 AM   #334
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From 1992 - the legacy had a prequel.

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Old 02-02-2009, 06:09 PM   #335
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I'd like to see this..

Actress Pia Glenn's sultry lap dance - and red panties - steal Bush-spoof show

BY JOANNA MOLLOY and MEREDITH KOLODNER
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Monday, February 2nd 2009, 6:05 PM


Will Ferrell's spoof of former President George Bush may be the hottest ticket in town, but it's a lap-dancing Condoleezza Rice - and her red panties - that steal the show.

The Broadway play features 90 minutes of hilarious presidential flubs and flashbacks - and a five-minute skit that shows Bush fantasizing about an X-rated relationship with Rice, his secretary of state.

Actress Pia Glenn, channeling a super-sultry Rice, appears on stage out of the mist just as a presidential-looking Ferrell reminisces about his cabinet.

She is clad in a skintight, siren-red business suit and 3-inch heels as she bumps and grinds her way around Bush and the presidential desk.

Glenn, 32, who won wide acclaim for her singing role in "Spamalot," managed to thrill Sunday's preview crowds at "You're Welcome America: A Final Night with George W. Bush" without saying a single word.

Asked to describe the most challenging part of her role, the Long Island native who attended New York University answered, "Nothing, it's a dream," as she slipped into the Cort Theatre for a matinee performance.

Audience members, who were shrieking with delight during the performance, said the 6-foot-1 beauty made it look effortless.

"She was spot on," said David Burstein, 20, who traveled from Philadelphia to see the show. "Her entrance was fantastic. She sort of steals the show."

The scene is a riff about just how close the former President was to Rice - especially after the unmarried secretary of state made a slip at a media-saturated dinner party in 2004.

She reportedly began a story with, "As I was telling my husb ...," and then stopped herself abruptly before resuming, "As I was telling President Bush."

Glenn takes it to the next level, as she slides seductively around Bush - legs splayed - and he warms his hands off the heat from her red panties.

"It was dead-on perfect," said Joe Crock, 21, a librarian from Baltimore. "The girl's got moves. I've never seen a hotter relationship in my life."

"You're Welcome America," which is still in previews, grossed $837,353 in its first preview week, placing it No. 6 at the Broadway box office.

Even in a recession-chilled winter theater season, the hard-to-get tickets are fetching upwards of $200 on scalping Web sites.

Some audience members said once word of Glenn's performance gets out, the show could spawn spinoffs, much like Tina Fey's portrayal of Sarah Palin caused a national sensation.

"She was a great dancer," said Megan Glinski, 22, a Spanish teacher from Michigan. "She was awesome. I loved her."
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:56 AM   #336
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U.S. senator seeks Bush-era "truth commission"

By Randall Mikkelsen

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A U.S. "truth commission" should investigate Bush administration policies including the promotion of war in Iraq, detainee treatment and wiretapping without a warrant, an influential senator proposed on Monday.

Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, urged a commission as a way to heal what he called sharp political divides under former President George W. Bush and to prevent future abuses.

He compared it to other truth commissions, such as one in South Africa that investigated the apartheid era.

"We need to come to a shared understanding of the failures of the recent past," Leahy said in a speech at Georgetown University.

"Rather than vengeance, we need a fair-minded pursuit of what actually happened," the Vermont senator said. "And we do that to make sure it never happens again."

Some Republicans and intelligence officials have resisted any suggestion of broad inquiries into accusations against the Bush administration, saying it would be a distraction or weaken morale in the fight against terrorism.

"If every administration started to re-examine what every prior administration did, there would be no end to it. This is not Latin America," the Judiciary committee's top-ranking Republican, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, told reporters last month.

President Barack Obama, who suggested shortly before he took office in January that he did not favor prosecuting Bush administration officials over their counterterrorism policies, said on Monday his administration would seek to uphold "our traditions of rule of law and due process."

"Nobody's above the law and if there are clear instances of wrongdoing ... people should be prosecuted just like any ordinary citizen," Obama told a news conference, his first since taking office.

"I will take a look at Senator Leahy's proposal ... but my general orientation is to say let's get it right moving forward," he said.

Bush spokesman Rob Saliterman said only, "We're not going to respond to every call for more investigations."

Leahy said he had not begun to promote the truth commission idea with the Obama administration or with the Democratic- controlled Congress. But he suggested it could be formed by both Congress and the White House, and said the panel must have credibility across the political spectrum.

Issues to investigate would include the Justice Department's firings of several U.S. attorneys, which Leahy said may have been motivated by a White House aim to influence elections, policies on the treatment of terrorism suspects and other areas "where (congressional) committees were lied to."

That included the war in Iraq, he said. "There were lies told to the American people all the way through."

Bush has acknowledged that intelligence on Iraqi weapons programs was wrong, but said he never lied to the public about the war.

Leahy said he wanted the Defense Department investigated for filming Iraq-war protesters, which he said came "shockingly close" to the FBI's Vietnam War-era Cointelpro operation to investigate domestic war protesters. "We fought a revolution in this country so we could protest the actions of our government," he said.
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:49 PM   #337
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(AP)WASHINGTON – Just days after the nation honored the 200th anniversary of his birth, 65 historians ranked Abraham Lincoln as the nation's best president.

Former President George W. Bush, who left office last month, was ranked 36th out of the 42 men who had been chief executive by the end of 2008, according to a survey conducted by the cable channel C-SPAN.

Bush scored lowest in international relations, where he was ranked 41st, and in economic management, where he was ranked 40th. His highest ranking, 24th, was in the category of pursuing equal justice for all. He was ranked 25th in crisis leadership and vision and agenda setting.


In contrast, Lincoln was ranked in the top three in each of the 10 categories evaluated by participants.

In C-SPAN's only other ranking of presidents, in 2000, former President Bill Clinton jumped six spots from No. 21 to 15. Other recent presidents moved positions as well: Ronald Reagan advanced from No. 11 to 10, George H.W. Bush rose from No. 20 to 18 and Jimmy Carter fell from No. 22 to 25.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:19 PM   #338
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Hasn't it been beautiful not seeing his mug on tv every single day?
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Old 02-17-2009, 10:45 AM   #339
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Hasn't it been beautiful not seeing his mug on tv every single day?
Yes!
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:22 PM   #340
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