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Old 10-08-2021, 05:05 PM   #461
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edit: wow it's been ages since i made a proper accidental double post lol.
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Old 10-09-2021, 08:22 PM   #462
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So Dave Chapelle’s special… I just watched it. It’s honesty not as bad as it’s being made out by the masses.

If you’ve ever watched any of his specials, he’s always dancing the line and making some delicately placed normalization of gay and trans folks, albeit at their expense.

The only thing I will say is that he does unnecessarily make jokes about people who are probably tired of being the center of his joke. He’s not tangential to trans people or related in any way so it is a bit exhausting.

The whole situation is a bit disappointing. I wouldn’t want Netflix to pull that special at all. I always saw Dave as an important proto-bridge between trans people and black people. With black trans lives being some of the most marginalized and threatened, normalizing the conversation about trans people, even if through crude or mean humor, is important. He often chooses to do this at the expense of white people, with which I’m perfectly fine with. That was actually one of his quips in the special. Poorly executed overall with this special, but I know where he was trying to go.


I generally agree with this assessment. I don’t have a problem at all with him pointing out gay racism, and while the TERF thing is ugly in general, he was mostly saying that they have a point that he agrees with (and one I find hard to argue with — the experience of being a woman and of being a transwoman are distinct and should be understood as such). And the main point, “I don’t need you to like me, I just need you to understand that I’m having a human experience” is a good one.

Sure, it’s overall anti-woke, but it’s a better show for that. I can also take the point that transfolk just want to live and not have their lives contested … but, like, it simply is a harder road when you are a minortiy. You’re better for it, your difference is your superpower. But it sure is hard. I’ve been through hellish experiences connected to my sexual orientation, and I literally lived the marriage equality movement from literally arguing on conservative websites to marching to getting married myself. I could say, “I shouldn’t have had to do any of that, why did I have to defend my humanity in a way that a straight person never has to?”

But in the end, there was no other choice. And I’m better for it. While I have times when I wish things were simpler, more straightforward, less contested, I wouldn’t trade places.
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Old 10-10-2021, 01:14 AM   #463
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i think leaving the last word on this topic to a trans comedian is probably appropriate:

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/20...median-netflix
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Old 10-10-2021, 01:41 AM   #464
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i think leaving the last word on this topic to a trans comedian is probably appropriate:

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/20...median-netflix


Don’t you find this response to be overtly dismissive and totally overlooking the very argument within the content in question? I’m genuinely curious if you actually watched it at this point.

Why is an argumentative piece of one trans comedian the end all? Why should this author have the last word? Because they’re trans? C’mon. It’s valid that the trans community is mad. This isn’t just a mic drop though.

Some really important parts of the skit that occurred for me were 1) Dave’s story of his friend Daphne Dorman, and 2) Dave’s anecdotal story of an encounter with someone in a parking lot.

The story about Daphne, a trans comedian that was a friend of his… who literally killed herself after supposedly being eaten alive on Twitter for the same kind of thing Dave is being eaten alive for right now… was that Daphne was “his tribe.” It’s not a tribe of hate, it’s just of a very different expression.

That leads me to the second point. Dave supposedly encountered a woman in a parking lot who gave him shit for anti-woman anti-whomever jokes that she didn’t approve of. It was his segue to talking about feminism. He tells the woman “look, it’s art, and you’re free to interpret it how you want, but as the creator of this art, I can tell you that I do not mean it that way.”

I’m very much so fundamentally in agreement with his perspective. The only thing I will say is that, given how badly he missed the mark here, he doesn’t have some motto or theme where it all came full circle. It didn’t. He fucked it up. It wasn’t funny. But normally he comes away making it full circle. Normally he is going on roasting trans people or gay people or whoever but then blabbing about how strong they are yada yada. It’s dangerous messaging in the hands of dumb people, but it’s pretty easy to see what his point is if you’re listening.

Here’s the thing, I’m a big fan of him, and I acknowledge his flaws. To a lesser flawed extent, I have to acknowledge and deal with the same types of criticisms with Sacha Baron Cohen. Oh brüno is bad for gay people because it exacerbates stereotypes and is absurd and blah blah blah. Except it’s so freaking absurd, Cohen is most certainly not homophobic, and implements a positive story arch. And to top it off, has VIP celebrities sign off on the movie. In 2009. If you don’t think that’s not important, I think you’re wrong. It introduces very very gay overtures and themes and whatever in the form of raunchy and wrong humor into the conversation.

Does it corrupt people? Hell yeah. Those people were gonna be homophobic anyways though. It nonetheless instills progressive change in thinking.

The major issue I have with Dave’s recent special is that he didn’t move forward. He took a step backward. He’s always been moving forward. I feel like he’s just getting old that this point.
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Old 10-10-2021, 01:47 AM   #465
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The Even Gayer than the Gay thread

My turn at a dp
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Old 10-10-2021, 02:10 AM   #466
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dude, that wasn't meant to be a mic drop. i just thought the conversation had run its course. i'm not trying to be adversarial here. i just thought that mayyybe in a discussion about a famous comedian making trans jokes it might be best to put forward something from a trans comedian's perspective.

no i honestly have not watched it and i don't intend to, just like i haven't and don't intend to listen to kanye's new album. i'm no longer interested in giving problematic men whose time has passed more watches/clicks/engagements/whatever. if that disqualifies me from having a valid opinion about this then so be it.
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Old 10-10-2021, 02:11 AM   #467
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edit: wtf what is the deal with these double posts
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Old 10-10-2021, 02:14 AM   #468
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My turn at a dp


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Old 10-10-2021, 02:45 AM   #469
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dude, that wasn't meant to be a mic drop. i just thought the conversation had run its course. i'm not trying to be adversarial here. i just thought that mayyybe in a discussion about a famous comedian making trans jokes it might be best to put forward an argument from a trans comedian's perspective.

no i honestly have not watched it and i don't intend to, just like i haven't and don't intend to listen to kanye's new album. i'm no longer interested in giving problematic men whose time has passed more watches/clicks/engagements/whatever. if that disqualifies me from having an opinion about this then so be it.


I had originally planned a response out that was going to be a bit more well written and centered around that Sacha Baron Cohen point. I don’t know if it ran its course more than I just failed to post that as life’s been busy. Bust I let it go.
So the thing is, you only sparked me to say something because of the fact that you’re doing exactly what Dave Chapelle did in his skit. He used a fellow trans comedian to elevate his position. I’m not discounting anything anyone says, least a trans comedian. People are upset. But the powerful statement of the night was “Daphne would’ve loved that [raunchy awful unacceptable] joke. Because Daphne didn’t fit in the LGBTQ tribe. She was my tribe.”
In some sense it frustrates me because you’re saying you didn’t watch it, you’re holding a very strong opinion here, and you’re in my eyes missing the complex conversation that ought to be had, rather than the easy but dismissive one.
He introduces a real trans person in his life. He damn near dedicates the whole portion of the skit to her, and declares her his friend. At other points, he repeatedly makes statements of equality. The only people he has no attempt at coming back full circle with is in fact white people, and why should I care about that part? If you don’t think these things are important, I disagree. Again, I will still say he didn’t come full circle and he didn’t have his message delivered, and the TERF thing sort of gave him no ground to recover on.
For the record I don’t really like stand up at all. It’s usually pretty lame. Skit comedy I love though. But Chapelle is one of the few stand up acts I’ll even watch. But comparing him to Kanye West is a travesty. Kanye West is a bad dude and a narcissist. Dave Chapelle, at worst, is a troll. Maybe even a has been. He’s not Kanye West.
Cancel culture is dumb. We need a better way.
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Old 10-10-2021, 02:46 AM   #470
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I was concerned with what dp might stand for when I went for the acronym, but nothing popped up so I went for it 🤷🏻*♂️
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Old 10-10-2021, 09:59 AM   #471
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For the record I don’t really like stand up at all. It’s usually pretty lame. Skit comedy I love though. But Chapelle is one of the few stand up acts I’ll even watch.

i agree with this. i find him pretty masterful when it comes to first telling a story, making parts of that story funny, and then complicating that story he just told you. he is so, so much smarter and nuanced than an article in the Guardian is going to be able to present -- so much is in the tone, the delivery, the looks, the pauses, the performance as a whole ...

i get 100% that transfolks are currently getting stomped on by conservative Republicans (and Dave's bit about the Wal-Mart bathroom absolutely eviscerates the bigoted "bathroom bills" so popular Red States) and that BIPOC transwomen are uniquely vulnerable, and in the midst of this crisis, a generational comedian like Chappelle making them the center of one of his comedy shows can easily inspire a "leave us alone; you contribute to an environment where our existence is threatened and often snuffed out." now that the gays are all married and normalized, the right wing desperately needs to find another lifeline of hate to motivate their churchy, bigoted base to the polls. transfolk are very politically useful that way, especially when framed, as they framed the gays, as being about "protecting the children."

so i think people should be mad. but i also think that people should listen carefully to a nuanced storyteller, and realize that there are going to be people on your team who may have points of disagreement with you ... and that's ok! that's literally what it's like being a big tent party. AOC and Joe Manchin are in the same party! that doesn't exist on the right. they can march in lockstep because they aren't diverse.

and this delves into the political problem of "wokeness." usually, i roll my eyes when people complain about it. like, i posted a week or so ago, i can't imagine it being one of the 25 biggest issues we should be worrying about. i feel the same way about cancel culture. like, it's just not that big a problem to me. free speech sometimes faces consequences. it's like in here, having seen, over the past 15+ years, several conservatives taking their ball and bat and going home and saying we're mean or intolerant or something. no. you just suck at making arguments.

but all this is to say is that the problem with "wokeness" -- and as culture identity and political identity meld into the same thing -- is that it can be stifling and off putting if it's too stringent and isn't presented with welcome and warmth. if its, "when Chappelle makes a trans joke, that's violence and women are dead because of him" ... which are threads i've read on Twitter ... we hurt everyone because we block out space for people to locate themselves on our "side."

i feel the same way about abortion. let's say you think abortion is fine through the first trimester, but after that, there should be more restrictions. are we going to say to them, "not good enough!" or "that's one way to be pro-choice! we accept your concerns, and though we don't fully agree, it's clear that you cannot vote for the other party based on them. welcome aboard!"

Trump has radicalize many of us, and in different ways. for me, the barbarians are at the gate. if he wins in 2024, democracy is over. the end. we must do literally everything we possibly can to prevent that. and that means creating a party where AOC and Manchin find things to agree on and vote for, so that everyone can see themselves in the one functioning political party we have.

otherwise we're all doomed.
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Old 10-25-2021, 04:49 PM   #472
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https://twitter.com/dataandpolitics/...757691393?s=21

This seems to be the next in line for conservative states to go after

And with the SCOTUS allowing the abortion ban to go through why wouldn’t this one ?
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