Terrorism in Oslo

[cobl04]

If I was a Norwegian criminal defense lawyer, I would do it for the normal rate - no more, no less. It would be a very interesting, albeit traumatic, case to work on, and you would learn a lot.






Most criminal justice systems are too focused on punishment and not enough on rehabilitaton. Norway's is much better than most in this regard. I hope they do not change it.

Yeah but my point is how can you live with the fact you're defending a man who did this? Law isn't my field, so I'm a bit naive, but still...

My point there is why should a man like this be given the chance to rehabilitate?

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Yeah but my point is how can you live with the fact you're defending a man who did this? Law isn't my field, so I'm a bit naive, but still...

'Defending him' certainly doesn't mean, or doesn't have to mean, 'trying to get him off'. It's vitally important, even in a situation like this, to make sure everything is done fairly and to the letter of the law. 'The defense' in this case might be purely about making sure they dot every 'i', cross every 't', kind of thing. Possibly more about defending the law, defending the system, than anything else. I mean, you certainly don't want something like some silly administrative cock up getting in between this guy and what he deserves.

However - that of course that might not be the case and it might get interesting. It doesn't sound like his lawyer is trying to deny or dilute what he's done thus far, but the killer has pleaded 'not guilty'. Not as a denial of his actions, he's not claiming to have not set off the bombs and shot up the island, but that those actions weren't murder, but instead justified for whatever reason. Where that goes during the trial, and if/how his defense try and argue that, we'll see.

 

[Vincent Vega]

It's the youth wing of a political party, no?

Even the youth can be politically active. Don't know about Ireland, but in Germany every party has a youth organisation where they sometimes even meet to exchange ideas and discuss politics.

 

[anne_j]

In Sweden every political party has a youth organization, like in Norway. They are actually quite independent in their relations to the "mother-party", and it's more common that the youth organizations try to lead the mother-party in a particular direction than the opposite.
I think it's a good thing that teenagers want to change the wrongs they see and do it in a democratic way. Most of our leading politicians started their careers in these organizations, learned how the democratic process works.
I actually can't see what is disturbing about that.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

It's pretty common everywhere. Although, the youngest at this camp (or the youngest killed) was 14, which is fairly young? I know the 'Young Liberals' in Australia, membership is 16 and over.

 

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

Whether he gets 21 or 30 years, he will still live the good life:



Could Norway rampage suspect go to posh prison? - World Watch - CBS News

Right now he's at Ila prison which is high security and not posh. He was meant to be sent to Ringeriket prison but he would have had a window view over Tyrifjord where Utøya is so that was decided against.
I haven't read anything in our newspapers about him being sent to Halden but it's hard to follow everything about this case now because there's so much being written.

 

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

In Norway does the defendant have the right to refuse an insanity defense? (Assuming he's found competent to stand trial in the first place.)[/QUOTE]

I don't know, I can't remember any similar case right now and I'm no expert when it comes to our law system.

 

[mobvok]

Yeah but my point is how can you live with the fact you're defending a man who did this? Law isn't my field, so I'm a bit naive, but still...

My point there is why should a man like this be given the chance to rehabilitate?

The general worry that you're defending a man who very likely committed heinous acts is mitigated by the fact it should therefore be proportionally trivial for the prosecution to make its case. As Earnie said the defense attorney's probably making sure that the prosecution is just as diligent at following the law as they would be for anyone else whose guilt is less likely.

And the inverse is even more significant, IMO. Being able to say "even THIS GUY" got fair treatment under the law is a powerful moral bludgeon for ensuring due process for "ordinary" citizens accused of crimes.

 

[financeguy]

Jeez, I'm not suggesting there's anything strange about youth wings of political parties per se - it's just the idea of summer camp run by a political party and devoted, at least in part, to political discussions - that's the thing I find vaguely creepy. Not a lot - just vaguely.

 

[cobl04]

for the record I couldn't think of anything I'd rather do less than go away camping and talk about politics.

 

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

Jeez, I'm not suggesting there's anything strange about youth wings of political parties per se - it's just the idea of summer camp run by a political party and devoted, at least in part, to political discussions - that's the thing I find vaguely creepy. Not a lot - just vaguely.

It's normal in Norway that young people are interested in politics and I think it's more healthy than being a complete ignorant to how politics works.
All the parties in Norway can have this youths camps and it's not like they are being indoctrinated, everyone are free to discuss.
Of course it will be a lot harder on the right wing Islam critical party now but they have also received support from members from other parties.

Do anyone know if any member of U2 have commented the terror attack? I saw that they dedicated "Stuck in a Moment" to Winehouse the day after the attack but I haven't found any comments from them about the shooting. To be frank my heart sinks a little here.

 

[kramwest1]

Do anyone know if any member of U2 have commented the terror attack? I saw that they dedicated "Stuck in a Moment" to Winehouse the day after the attack but I haven't found any comments from them about the shooting. To be frank my heart sinks a little here.

This upset me at the Minneapolis show. It was fine to dedicate Stuck to Winehouse, but it would have been decent of Bono to say something (and Minnesota is loaded with Norwegians. Spring Grove, Minnesota has the highest percentage Norwegian ancestry of any city in the U.S.).

I know the Horn of Africa was on his mind because he had just come from a meeting before the concert, but still...

 

[cobl04]

His trial began yesterday.

He gave a Nazi salute before sitting down, acknowledged the attacks but did not plead guilty as he felt it was an act of "self-defence" and then finally broke down and cried - when watching a video of his own propoganda.

Due process, fair trial, I know all of that bullshit. But facts are facts. This cunt of human murdered 77 people and injured dozens more in cold blood. Dig up the most horrendous form of torture and submit him to it.

His sanity or insanity is the big sticking point in this case.

If he doesn't get numerous life sentences I'll lose whatever faith I have in courts of law.

Breivik Trial | Anders Behring Breivik Cries While Watching Video

 

[cobl04]

for the record I couldn't think of anything I'd rather do less than go away camping and talk about politics.

Funny how things change.

 

[Pearl]

His sanity or insanity is the big sticking point in this case.

He is clearly functionally insane. Kind of like a psychopath: he knows what he did was wrong, but he does not care.

I'm sure Norway will put him for a long time, and along the way, look for reasons to keep him locked up.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

He gave a Nazi salute before sitting down, acknowledged the attacks but did not plead guilty as he felt it was an act of "self-defence" and then finally broke down and cried - when watching a video of his own propoganda.

He sounds charming .

Another plus to trials: the trial will be an opportunity for everyone to hear exactly how he plotted and carried out such a horrific act. There are details the jury will probably hear that weren't broadcast before for some reason or another. They'll get to see him as he presents himself, and if they see someone who shows no remorse or emotion towards those he terrorized and murdered, that will quite likely hurt him more than anything else. His lawyer could bend over backwards trying to defend him, but all the jury will likely remember is his Nazi salute and crying at his own frightening propaganda, and the cold-blooded crime he plotted.

Trust me, cobl, I get your frustration-I too often wonder how difficult it'd be to even begin to try to defend scumbags like this. But the due process/fair trial thing does benefit everyone in the long run. It's not perfect by any means, courts have fucked up before, no question. But it's sure better than the alternative.

That said, I'm with you, throw the book at him. There are some people you just cannot rehabilitate, and they're a danger to society at large, so they should be locked up far away. When it comes to violent criminals, my sympathy pretty much evaporates.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Where is the line for sympathy when it comes to violent crime and mental health? I'm sure all violent criminals exhibit some degree of psychopathy, but where is the point when the degree of mental illness or mental disability elicits sympathy or pity rather than anger or hatred? I'm not implying this case fits the latter, I've just always thought it was an interesting topic

 

[cobl04]

I'd struggle to feel sorry for anyone regardless of mental state if they did what Breivik did. Interesting topic though.

 

[Jive Turkey]

What if he was mentally retarded?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

If it can be proven there is a mental illness behind such horrific actions, then I would suggest those people be sent not to jail, but to psych wards (and good ones, ones that can take care of severely mentally ill people in the proper manner). Jail would not be helpful to such people, especially if they get out-they'd have the abuse or disturbing activities they may have been involved in or witnessed in jail adding on to their already mentally unstable mindset, and that would be a recipe for disaster. Send them for psychiatric help instead, and if they need to be there the rest of their lives, then...I guess that's what must happen. If they can be rehabilitated and prove themselves worthy of a second chance in society, then we go from there.

But if they do this stuff simply because they're cold-blooded sociopaths, then they need to go to jail and stay there the rest of their lives. I heard recently Charles Manson came up for parole again...why? Nobody's ever going to let him out, it's pointless to keep going through the cycle with him, he's where he's supposed to be, leave him there and let it go.

The insanity defense is always a very gray area to deal with when it comes to violent crime. Many people would argue committing crimes of that sort indicates you're not all right upstairs to begin with, and some people who aren't insane can try and use that as a means to get a lesser sentence.

But then of course there are people who genuinely are mentally messed up for one reason or another, or, as you state, Jive, mentally retarded to begin with and therefore actually incapable of understanding right from wrong. It's a very tough call.

 

[Jive Turkey]

But if they do this stuff simply because they're cold-blooded sociopaths

Sociopathy is a mental disorder just as schizophrenia is. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a huge percentage of inmates suffer from some form of personality disorder. Another huge percentage display characteristics of fetal alcohol syndrome. None of these is any more deliberate than the others. I just find it interesting that our impressions of people with these disorders and where we place the blame if a situation arises is dependent on the outward manifestations of the mental illness. If the psychosis is immediately apparent (muttering to ones self, ticks, verbal outbursts, etc), we're more likely to place blame on the condition; If the psychosis is more functional, we're more likely to place the blame on the individual.

 

[cobl04]

Sympathy is definitely not the right word. I'd have a degree of understanding, I suppose, but you kill a whole bunch of people and I don't really care if you're schizophrenic or sociopathic or whatever, you deserve to be locked up, a long way from society. Refer to Angela's first paragraph.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Dig up the most horrendous form of torture and submit him to it.[/url]

Come on, let's not lose our own dignity in this.

And as far as I know Norway doesn't have multiple sentencing.

 

[cobl04]

I'm reminded of the Port Arthur massacre (Australia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, where Martin Bryant murdered 35 people and injured 21 others in cold blood, including shooting a mother in the head in front of her 3 and 6yo daughters, whom he then shot and killed.

He's serving 35 life sentences as well as 1,035 years for a range of charges relating to the massacre, and he will never be eligible for parole.

That is how these cases should be dealt with.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Refer to Angela's first paragraph.

But she kind of illustrated my point in her second paragraph

 

[Galeongirl]

His trial began yesterday.

He gave a Nazi salute before sitting down, acknowledged the attacks but did not plead guilty as he felt it was an act of "self-defence" and then finally broke down and cried - when watching a video of his own propoganda.

Due process, fair trial, I know all of that bullshit. But facts are facts. This cunt of human murdered 77 people and injured dozens more in cold blood. Dig up the most horrendous form of torture and submit him to it.

His sanity or insanity is the big sticking point in this case.

If he doesn't get numerous life sentences I'll lose whatever faith I have in courts of law.

Breivik Trial | Anders Behring Breivik Cries While Watching Video

Actually, it wasn't a Nazi salute. It was the Templar's greeting. Balled fist opposed to open hand. He claims to be one of the recent day Templar, apparently a big underground group or whatshowever. Is said to be the catholic counterpart of the extremist islam.

He does seem pretty damn insane to me. He hopes to go to jail so he'll die a martyr. And when the stories were told about how the children on the island ran for their lives, most shot in the back of the head or neck, he smiled. And then tried to look neutral right after, as if he didn't want the rest of the courtroom to see it. Pretty fuckin' batshit insane if you ask me. Should be locked up forever.

 

[An Cat Gav]

Actually, it wasn't a Nazi salute. It was the Templar's greeting. Balled fist opposed to open hand. He claims to be one of the recent day Templar, apparently a big underground group or whatshowever. Is said to be the catholic counterpart of the extremist islam.

He does seem pretty damn insane to me. He hopes to go to jail so he'll die a martyr. And when the stories were told about how the children on the island ran for their lives, most shot in the back of the head or neck, he smiled. And then tried to look neutral right after, as if he didn't want the rest of the courtroom to see it. Pretty fuckin' batshit insane if you ask me. Should be locked up forever.

I don't think the Templar movement has anything to do with Catholicism, historically they weren't exactly the best of friends and scandinavia has only a tiny Catholic populatio anyway and Brevik
isn't one of them.
Are you thinking of Opus Dei?

 

[Vincent Vega]

It was founded after the first crusades to protect pilgrims on their passage to Jerusalem and Konstantinopel. It was totally Catholic, until it became too powerful and were brought down by the French King Philipp IV. and then-Pope Clement II.

And it's true, the Nazis didn't use a fist, all fingers were spread out. Breivik frequently mentions the templars and even has pictures of himself in a fake templar costume and photomontages with him among other templars. It's his favourite imagery.

There've been two psychiatric expertises produced, both more than 300 pages long and with contrary findings. I guess this gives you an idea how complex it can be to determine one's sanity. Some might feel inclined to suggest that the second examination was written to please the public (there was a great amount of outrage when he was found to be insane and not able to be brought before a court), but from what I've heard and read they are pretty well established.

 

[An Cat Gav]

.

 

[cobl04]

Sorry, had kind of just used what all the other media used when I said Nazi salute... that'll learns me