Terrorism in Oslo

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

It was founded after the first crusades to protect pilgrims on their passage to Jerusalem and Konstantinopel. It was totally Catholic, until it became too powerful and were brought down by the French King Philipp IV. and then-Pope Clement II.

And it's true, the Nazis didn't use a fist, all fingers were spread out. Breivik frequently mentions the templars and even has pictures of himself in a fake templar costume and photomontages with him among other templars. It's his favourite imagery.

There've been two psychiatric expertises produced, both more than 300 pages long and with contrary findings. I guess this gives you an idea how complex it can be to determine one's sanity. Some might feel inclined to suggest that the second examination was written to please the public (there was a great amount of outrage when he was found to be insane and not able to be brought before a court), but from what I've heard and read they are pretty well established.

Yep that's what I was gearing at. Though Breivik claims there's a new Templar movement, no proof has been found of any existing network. Quite safe to say he's obsessed with them.

It's quite interesting how those two psychiatric tests both came out with quite different results. He himself claims he's not insane. He wants to go to jail. So that sounds pretty insane to me.

[cobl04]

If conservatives such as himself could change policies to prevent immigration ''by executing 70 people, that will contribute to upholding our values and culture and will help prevent civil war in Norway in the future and prevent further people from dying''.

Victims just like Hitler Youth, says mass killer

If that's not insanity, I don't know what is.

[Galeongirl]

It sure sounds like it.

[yolland]

Originally Posted by cobl04

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers

Norway shooting: Glenn Beck compares dead teenagers to Hitler youth - Telegraph

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

Originally Posted by yolland

Yuk, I have no words for how disgusting Glen Beck is. Of what I've read he has had had political camps aimed at youths himself.

I hope Breivik won't be deemed insane because that would take attention away from that ideology of his.

[corianderstem]

Anders Breivik: 40,000 Norwegians mock killer with 'Marxist' song, with video

I found this very moving.

[Diemen]

Norway's response to Breivik and his crime has been truly admirable. No mob mentality, just a clear, civilized response that allows Breivik his rantings and then proves him wrong at every step.

LOVE the idea of 40,000 joining together in solidarity to sing.

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

Originally Posted by Diemen

Norway's response to Breivik and his crime has been truly admirable. No mob mentality, just a clear, civilized response that allows Breivik his rantings and then proves him wrong at every step.

LOVE the idea of 40,000 joining together in solidarity to sing.

Well, that's not completely true. The Norwegian media have worked hard to show Breivik as a pathetic looser, they know he's allowed to follow the news. Problem is that in they eagerness to ridicule Breivik they also ridicule all of those who aren't terrorists but share some of his characteristics or failures. The media ridicule him for things like "not being able to park a car properly" and "failing in business", something that many others can recognize themselves in + a lot of other characteristics.

One of our biggest newspaper, VG, had a huge photo of Breivik on the front-page which was covered with the words "Look at me" over and over. This only tells me that VG has no serious standard left, no better than The Daily Mail.

The singing started after Breivik had criticized the song, it seemed like the singing was more an act of "he provoked us, let's provoke back."

I feel safe in a socialist society and vote AP but I have no problem understanding the frustration of right-wings now that their opinions are being seen as less legit after ABB.

[Vlad n U 2]

Heh, I liked that.

Originally Posted by AGirlLikeTheSea

I feel safe in a socialist society and vote AP but I have no problem understanding the frustration of right-wings now that their opinions are being seen as less legit after ABB.

Um ... aren't you guys social-democratic to some degree?

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Heh, I liked that.



Um ... aren't you guys social-democratic to some degree?

Yes, although there are disagreements about where some parties stand, some even call Norway for a communist state. Socialist from what I learned is just a wide term covering everything left, like social-democratic or communism.

Socialist is a curse word for many right-wings here, just like the word "conservative" is for me. I wouldn't use the term on every right-wing though.

A US resident friend of mine said there's hardly any difference between a liberal and a conservative.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by AGirlLikeTheSea

Yes, although there are disagreements about where some parties stand, some even call Norway for a communist state. Socialist from what I learned is just a wide term covering everything left, like social-democratic or communism.

Haha, that's unsurprisingly crazy and silly. It's a shame that many people are unable to make a distinction from say, socialism and social-democracy.

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Haha, that's unsurprisingly crazy and silly. It's a shame that many people are unable to make a distinction from say, socialism and social-democracy.

As I said, from what I learned the word "socialism" can be used as a umbrella-term, there are variations of political views under that term.

[Vincent Vega]

Well, a socialist wants to overcome capitalism, while a social-democrat dreams of making capitalism more fair for everyone.

[AGirlLikeTheSea]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

Well, a socialist wants to overcome capitalism, while a social-democrat dreams of making capitalism more fair for everyone.

There are some industries that are very protected in Norway, they survive on economical support from the state. Our art and film-industry and farmers are surviving on subsidies. Shamefully our government subsidized the fur-industry too.

Can this be called fair? Good thing is that it keeps a lot of people employed. On the other hand, in an attempt to protect local producers the import-tax is a killer. No good for Norwegian customers that doesn't always find what they're looking for among Norwegian products.

This thread has lost it's track.

The worst news about ABB these days is that he's able to have contact with others who have the same mindset.

Why on earth is he allowed that?! It's disturbing.

[Vincent Vega]

Yes, it leads away from the topic, so just in short: What is fair is a very philosophical question and one social-democrats, just as anyone, have often struggled with. And subsidies and protection of industries are common aspects of economic policy.

I guess they are trying to maintain the same rights for him as for anyone else. Which sometimes is a bit hard to swallow. And maybe a little risky as well.

[yolland]

Bit of a sideshow but

Haaretz, Apr. 30

Johan Galtung, Norwegian sociologist nicknamed the “father of peace studies,” made anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli remarks while lecturing at the University of Oslo, in an article published afterward in the Norwegian press and in an interview with Haaretz that followed. Among other statements, Galtung claimed that a possible connection exists between the terrorist responsible for the massacre of children in Norway last summer, and the Mossad. “The Jews control US media, and divert for the sake of Israel,” wrote Galtung in an article published in Norway. He pointed out that one of the factors behind the anti-Semitic sentiment that led to Auschwitz was the fact that Jews held influential positions in German society. Galtung also recommended reading “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” one of the most popular anti-Semitic texts in the world.

Professor Galtung, 82-years-old, is one of the founders of the discipline called “Peace Studies and Conflict Resolution,” as well as a founder of the international Peace Research Institute in Oslo. He is considered well-respected sociological researcher, has been awarded many prizes, and is the author of over a thousand articles and over a hundred books. Some of his work has also been translated into Hebrew. Galtung’s repeated anti-Semitic remarks were exposed by the website of the Norwegian periodical, “Humanist.” (here & here) Some of the comments were made during a lecture at the University of Oslo last summer, and others were written by Galtung in response to an article critical of him that was published in the periodical. Among other claims, Galtung stated that there is a possible link between Anders Behring Breivik, responsible for massacring dozens of children in Norway last summer, and Jewish and Israeli factions. The connection is supposedly based on the fact that the murderer has ties to the “Freemasons” organization, “which has Jewish origins,” according to Galtung. The supposed connection to Israel is through the Mossad--which Galtung believes might have given Breivik his orders.

...“Six Jewish companies control 96% of the media,” wrote Galtung. He included the names of journalists, publishers, TV networks, and movie studios, that he claims are controlled by Jews. Media mogul Rupert Murdoch was also included on the list. “He’s not Jewish, but many of the people under him are,” wrote Galtung, in reference to Murdoch. “Many of them are fanatically pro-Israel,” he pointed out. Immediately following these claims, Galtung wrote that “70% of the professors at the 20 most important American universities are Jewish.” Galtung bases his doctrine on an article written by William Luther Pierce, founder of the “National Alliance,” a white supremacist organization...Galtung also held an open forum discussion concerning the contents of the book “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” one of the most quoted anti-Semitic works around the world. “I wonder how many people with such strong opinions on the book have even read it,” he wrote. “It is impossible to do so today without thinking of Goldman Sachs,” he added.

[financeguy]

I can't see that Breivik fits the character of a paranoid schizophrenic - probably more likely a sociopath - whether sociopaths are necessarily insane is debatable.

You know, it's not an extremist point of view to find the idea of political summer school camps for teenagers, frankly, vaguely creepy. It's not extremist to have reservations about mass immigration from Muslim countries into Europe. If holding such points of view makes one by default an extremist, I'm probably a neo-Nazi myself. But the thing about Breivik is that his actions were so totally and utterly disproportionate to his perceived grievances that we must venture into the domain of psychopathology to seek to explain them. From an interview with the author JG Ballard a few years ago:

JB: In Millennium People, you make the point that the middle-class revolution in Chelsea Marina will become part of the "folkloric calendar... to be celebrated along with the last night of the Proms and the Wimbledon tennis fortnight." If revolution is inevitably repackaged, then where does it leave us? Can art ever be a vehicle for political change?

JGB: The revolutions that are repackaged tend to be pseudo-revolutions, or those that were media events in the first place. The destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11 has not yet been repackaged into something with more consumer appeal, I notice. Another revolutionary event, the assassination of JFK, was rapidly defused by the intense media coverage, the endless replaying of the Zapruder film, and the vast proliferation of conspiracy theories. But Kennedy was himself largely a media construct, with an emotional appeal that was as calculated as any advertising campaign. His life and death were both complete fictions, or very nearly. A real revolution, as 9/11 was in its way, will always come out of some unexpected corner of the sky.

The point about the middle-class revolution in Millennium People is that it was pointless, that it failed. For all their efforts to throw off their chains, the revolution achieved nothing, and the rebels returned to Chelsea Marina, resuming their former lives, even more docile than before. What I'm arguing in MP is that in our totally pacified world the only acts that will have any significance at all will be acts of meaningless violence. Already we have seen signs of this - random shootings, the lack of motive for Jill Dando's murder, suicide bombings that achieve nothing, as in Israel. As MP tries to show, even a political revolution may be pointless. All this, it seems to me, means that the main danger in the future will not be from terrorist acts that advance a cause, however wrong-headed, but from terrorist acts without any cause at all. Dr Gould in MP articulates all this more fluently than I can. I agree with him.

Age of unreason | Books | guardian.co.uk

Applying this to Breivik's actions, looking for a motive or explanation outside of psychopathology is rather pointless. Sure, he has provided his 'rationale', such as it is, but that is surely just a delusion he has invented to explain to himself what he has done. He committed those appalling acts simply because he could, no more and no less, and he wasn't destined for any greatness or notoriety in any other sphere of life than terrorism.

[INDY500]

Norway killer Anders Breivik ruled sane, given 21-year prison term - CNN.com

Fri August 24, 2012

Oslo, Norway (CNN) -- Anders Behring Breivik, the man who killed 77 people in a bomb attack and gun rampage just over a year ago, was judged to be sane by a Norwegian court Friday, as he was sentenced to 21 years in prison.

The issue of Breivik's sanity, on which mental health experts have given conflicting opinions, was central to the court's ruling.

He was sentenced to the maximum possible term of 21 years and was ordered to serve a minimum of 10 years in prison.

The sentence could be extended, potentially indefinitely, in the future if he is considered still to pose a threat to society. Norway does not have the death penalty.

He has been held in a "particularly high security" wing of Ila Prison since his detention immediately after the killings.

Over the past year, Breivik has had three cells for his use, one for physical exercise and another for reading and writing, as well as a separate outdoor exercise space, he said. Breivik cannot mix with prisoners from other wings, but does have contact with prison staff.

"As of now, we think there is a need to subject Mr. Behring Breivik to a particularly high security regime," Bjarkeid said.

The high security regime "puts a heavy strain on an inmate, especially if it lasts for a longer period," he added, so Breivik's continued detention under these conditions will be kept under constant review.

Yes, we wouldn't want to cause the killer of 77 innocents incarcerated guest of the state any undue "heavy strain."

[anitram]

He didn't really get 21 years - that is simply the maximum permissible under Norwegian law with the stipulation that the sentence can be extended indefinitely if he is considered to be an ongoing danger to society. It's essentially a life sentence with mandatory parole consideration at 21 yrs.

[INDY500]

Maybe, but I bet I'm more confident that Tim McVeigh will never again walk the earth as a free man than you are that Anders Breivik will never leave his three cell condominium prison.