Subprime credit crunch...

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Bluer White said:
Let's remember that many of the large firms are well diversified, at some point soon these beaten down stocks will be great buys.

I agree. I wish I had the money to cash in when that happens.

I'm not sure that the last rate cut was a good move. Combine it with $95+ oil and you start to have inflation concerns. The cut sets a bad precedent for lenders too...screw up and we'll bail you out.

These have been my thoughts recently too, actually.

I don't think the average homebuyer is 'stupid.' Naive is a better word. Most folks weren't looking to flip a home and make a profit. They bit on the lenders' sales pitch to finance that dream house, but when it sounds too good to be true...it probably is. And now everyone is feeling the pinch.

Financial literacy in this nation is woefully inadequate. I imagine that this illiteracy has an awful lot to do with that "naivete."
 
I think it would be a brave investor, at this point, that would be buying bank stocks. That's not to say there aren't value bank stocks out there - there probably are - but how does the ordinary investor know what losses are buried where, when even the rating agencies don't?

If, like me, you believe there's a lot more S.H.I.T. out there, then:-

Short banking stocks, buy gold, buy the Swiss franc.

(This is not, of course, formal investment advice.)
 
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I wouldn't buy banking stocks either at the start of a recession or stagflationary period. Every oil shock has triggered a recession, and this will be no different IMO. Agree with getting partially out of the US dollar - and possibly into the swiss franc, euro, canadian dollar e.g. as well as going long gold and/or oil.
 
Infinitum98 said:


There is nothing wrong in buying a smaller home that costs less $. If thats not possible, there is nothing wrong in renting. These people took out Adjustable Rate Mortgages becuase they were stupid, they deserve everything they get.

Even a smaller house cost a lot of money in the days of the housing boom. And if you think there's 'nothing wrong with renting' you've never rented. People want a real home of their own, an investment, something they can have for their families and their futures. They had no idea how things would turn out. They weren't stupid.
 
financeguy said:
I think it would be a brave investor, at this point, that would be buying bank stocks. That's not to say there aren't value bank stocks out there - there probably are - but how does the ordinary investor know what losses are buried where, when even the rating agencies don't?

The key phrase is, though, "at some point." There's probably nothing worth buying right now.
 
Butterscotch said:


Even a smaller house cost a lot of money in the days of the housing boom. And if you think there's 'nothing wrong with renting' you've never rented. People want a real home of their own, an investment, something they can have for their families and their futures. They had no idea how things would turn out. They weren't stupid.

Yes of course people want their own home, but why buy a home that you can't afford to pay the mortgage on? These people were either stupid or greedy to take out adjustable rate mortgages in buying a home.

And for your information, I have rented before, and I live in a house now because we were able to afford it, but if I wouldn't have been able to afford it, i'd still be renting, and saving up my $$$, I wouldn't have made a big bet on interest rates like all these other folks did.

:)
 
financeguy said:
I think it would be a brave investor, at this point, that would be buying bank stocks. That's not to say there aren't value bank stocks out there - there probably are - but how does the ordinary investor know what losses are buried where, when even the rating agencies don't?

If, like me, you believe there's a lot more S.H.I.T. out there, then:-

Short banking stocks, buy gold, buy the Swiss franc.

(This is not, of course, formal investment advice.)

The key is to find the most quality companies that have been beaten down undeservingly along with the rest of the sector. There aren't many of them, but if you look hard enough there are those very few quality firms that are undervalued. I can think of one bank and one investment bank like that. Can you guess the ones i'm thinking of? :wink:
 
ntalwar said:


I also blame corrupt and greedy appraisers and lenders who thought the boom would go on forever and had few standards for lending. The borrowers aren't the only ones getting hit. We are all paying the price (thanks to the Fed) with a devalued dollar, inflation, and a recession. I've hedged against this trend fortunately.

You're right, greed existed with both the lenders and borrowers and they are both paying the price now. More than 60 mortgage lenders have gone bankrupt, I think the good news out of this is less competition for the lenders that are still standing.

We are all paying the price, you are right. Although I love bear markets because that is usually when I buy, buy, buy stocks.
 
Etrade down into the 3s. It's a freefall. Worries for a run on the bank.

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/Investors-Pummel-ETrade-on-Lower-Profit-Warning-60269.html

More....

Investor assets in E-Trade accounts said to be safe
Marketwatch - November 12, 2007 3:54 PM ET


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ETFC Trade 3.55 -5.04
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NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- As investors shaved more than half the value from E-Trade Financial Corp. shares Monday, financial advisers, regulators and the company said that account holders have several layers of protection, and in general do not have to fear that the current problems will cause customers losses.

"Brokers are highly regulated and SIPC insurance is in place, meaning that their assets are safe," said John Deyeso, a certified financial planner at Financial Filosophy.

He added that the insurance does not protect against losses due to market drops, but it does protect against brokers going out of business or not being able to supply the investments on demand.

Shares of E-Trade (ETFC) lost more than half their value Monday, plunging as the company faces more subprime-related write-downs and as analysts at Citigroup suggest a possible bankruptcy for the online broker. See full story.

The SIPC is the Securities Investor Protection Corporation. It is the first line of defense in the event a brokerage fails owing customers cash and securities missing from customer accounts.

E-Trade is a member of the SIPC, and as such, its protections cover securities customers up to $500,000, including $100,000 for claims for cash, E-Trade said Monday.

"SIPC does not cover individuals who are sold worthless stocks and other securities," according to the company's Web site. Rather, "SIPC helps individuals whose money, stocks and other securities are stolen by a broker or put at risk when a brokerage fails for other reasons." Read more about SIPC.

The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation insures deposits at E-Trade Bank to at least $100,000, the company added.

E-Trade also said that its E-Trade Clearing LLC unit has insurance from London insurers that provides additional protection, with an aggregate limit of $600 million, to pay amounts in addition to those returned in a SIPC liquidation under certain circumstances. This coverage does not protect against loss of the market value of securities, E-Trade disclosed.

On Sunday, Citigroup downgraded the online broker's shares to sell and raised the specter of bankruptcy, and now retail investors may be wondering what they should do with their E-Trade accounts.

"Bankruptcy risk cannot be ruled out," Citi analysts wrote in a note Sunday. They also lowered E-Trade's rating to sell. See full story.

Citi's Prashant Bhatia, in a move criticized by E-Trade as irresponsible, cautioned that there is a higher probability that customers will start a run on the firm's bank, given the worries that it may be beyond repair.

Clients have other options, such as moving assets to competing brokerages, Bhatia said.

The analyst added that active traders, who are a segment that is in tune with daily market events, generate a large proportion of E-Trade's activity and earnings

"The continued negative news flow could be a catalyst to transfer assets out of E-Trade," according to Bhatia.
 
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U.S. organizing an adjustable-rate freeze

By Mark Trumbull
Christian Science Monitor, Dec. 4


Help is coming to address one of the most important factors hammering the US housing market: the large number of home­owners at risk of foreclosure because their interest rates will soon reset upward. The emerging plan – a voluntary effort to temporarily freeze mortgage interest rates for some – won't be a one-step fix for the nation's mortgage troubles, said Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, who is coordinating the private-sector plan. But it would provide meaningful aid to as many as 1 million homeowners facing foreclosure.

It could also help the economy escape a possible recession next year. A rising tide of foreclosures has become a key force behind the unusual severity of the current housing downturn. "There's no silver bullet," says Brian Bethune, an economist at Global Insight, a forecasting firm in Lexington, Mass. But reset relief "is going to help." In much of the nation, home prices have been declining over the past year after a historic run-up. The good news is that the decline is helping to make housing more affordable for buyers who had been priced out of the market. Over time, that should help restore a balance of supply and demand.

But right now, the economy faces some risks if home prices fall too far. The further prices fall, the greater the number of recent home buyers who will go "upside down," having homes that are worth less than the balance of their mortgage loans. The result could be even more foreclosures – and more homes up for auction in an already glutted market. Banks, already smarting from large losses tied to mortgage loans, could further restrict credit to new home buyers out of uncertainty about property values. "The mortgage markets can't withstand that kind of pressure," Mr. Bethune says. Lenders have already been tightening credit standards in response to a shifting economic climate. They felt they could lend on easy terms when prices were rising, but with prices falling they have less appetite for risky loans.

Against this backdrop – rising borrower defaults and tighter bank credit – the Bush administration is under growing pressure to contain the economic fallout. At a housing-related conference Monday, Secretary Paulson discussed the emerging plan to help at-risk borrowers. The basic idea is for banks to allow many homeowners who have adjustable-rate loans to postpone a rate reset that they won't be able to afford. Instead, they would keep paying their initial interest rate, which are often low "teaser" rates.

The plan wouldn't give help to people who are already behind on their loans. Nor would it cover people who can afford to pay the mandated reset. Still, as many as 1.1 million homeowners could fall into the middle category – able to pay their current rate but not the higher reset one – and could qualify for help.

What's in it for the lenders? They would lose some potential income, but they would gain by having fewer costly foreclosures to process. And it could help stop the downward momentum in home prices that threatens the industry. "I am confident they will finalize these standards soon," Paulson said, referring to the loan-servicing companies and lenders in an alliance called HOPE NOW. "As a result, what was a fragmented, cumbersome process can be a coordinated effort, which more quickly helps able homeowners."

Indeed, a central virtue of this plan will be speed. Currently, mortgages are resetting at such a pace that companies holding the mortgage loans can't process such "workout" deals with borrowers as fast as loans are going into default. The Treasury's goal is to help banks develop large "categories of borrowers eligible for appropriate modifications and refinancings," Paulson said.

Some economists and federal officials have been hoping that the mortgage industry can shift many borrowers from adjustable-rate mortgages (ARMs) to fixed-rate loans. But according to news reports, industry participants w opt to simply postpone the day of reckoning. Instead of resetting next year, eligible borrowers might get to continue paying their teaser interest rates for two to five years.

But anything that helps borrowers caught in the middle – those who have jobs and incomes but can't afford the reset – could help the economy, analysts say. "I am leaning towards liking the administration's Teaser Freezer plan," economist Ed Yardeni, head of his own Great Neck, N.Y., research firm, wrote in a note to clients Monday. "Are we making some progress toward resolving the credit crisis? I think so."

Despite the economy's strong performance in the third quarter of 2007, many economists see the US as walking a fine line between recession and growth in the months ahead. The housing slump has hurt not only the construction industry but also the ability of consumers to tap housing wealth through refinancing their mortgages and taking some cash out. Bethune says the loan modifications are just part of a multistep housing recovery plan that is needed.
 
This plan will just delay the inevitable foreclosure for most of the borrowers. The credit crunch still remains, and the Fed will have to keep cutting interest rates.
 
MrBrau1 said:


Wonderful. Just wonderful.

Nothing like rewarding bad behavior.

Yea its ridiculous.

However there are so many guidelines that most people won't be helped by this.

First of all you have to be on a Subprime ARM and have had borrowed the money in the time period from (I forgot what date) in 2005 - (I forgot what date) 2006.

Secondly you must be living in your house for the past however many years.

Third, only up to 5% of your home is allowed to be equity funded.

Fourth, you only get it if you need it.

And there must be other guidelines that I can't remember off the top of my head.

Having said that, it is ridiculous that people want to reward bad behavior, I certainly wouldn't expect that from a Republican administration.

There was a lady on CNBC the other day who was advocating the transfer of Wall Street bonus money to people facing foreclosure! How ridiculous is that? If I was an investment banker on wall street, I would NOT want to pay tens of thousands of dollars to some fool who shouldn't even have borrowed money for a car, let alone a house.
 
Infinitum98 said:


However there are so many guidelines that most people won't be helped by this.

Yeah, I think it was more of a short-term psychological move. It might backfire later with tighter credit for everyone.


MrBrau1 said:


Hello $8/gallon gasoline.

Bring it on. F150 drivers go to hell.

One problem is both the SUV and light truck cost and mileage (50 cents/mile) are tax deductible for small business owners (of which there a a lot). So they have little incentive to downsize.
 
ntalwar said:

One problem is both the SUV and light truck cost and mileage (50 cents/mile) are tax deductible for small business owners (of which there a a lot). So they have little incentive to downsize.

As they should. They're a necessary tool for many.

Yet as I look out from my office onto our parking lot, I count 9 full size pick-ups sitting idle from 8am to 6pm. They ain't hauling anything except 1 person to and from an office job.

I love hearing someone who drives a 16mpg SUV as a commuter car complain about gas prices and the "guvmint."
 
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MrBrau1 said:


As they should. They're a necessary tool for many.

They're also abused by many. The problem is "small business" is not qualified, so doctors, lawyers, realtors and anyone else with a small business could deduct it even though they don't need an SUV. In fact, they were encouraged by accountants to do so. It was a $100k limit for a while, and people get to deduct Hummers, Escalades, etc.
 
martha said:


And then how they put an oilman in office for 8 years.

It's a greed/ego thing.

Don't like the price of gas?

Buy a more efficient car. Use your power as a consumer.

I've suggested this to people before. Some, in the middle of a new car search.

I get looks of great confusion.

"But I NEED to haul 6 people and a dog around?"

"So, on the 2 occasions a year, you need to haul 6 people and a dog around, rent a van. Or take 2 cars."

"But I NEED an Expedition to keep my kids safe?"

"When will your kids be of draft age? Right about the time we go to war with China?"
 
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Infinitum98 said:
First of all you have to be on a Subprime ARM and have had borrowed the money in the time period from (I forgot what date) in 2005 - (I forgot what date) 2006.


Fourth, you only get it if you need it.


Applies to mortgages issued between Jan. 1, 2005 and July 31, 2007, scheduled to rise in 2008 to 2010.

Infinitum98 said:

Fourth, you only get it if you need it.

I'm curious as to how they're going to determine this. Do they give help to someone with a $500/month payment on their new Audi? Or Chevy Silverado?

How will credit card debt play in?
 
martha said:


Oh no. Never. This isn't the current Republican constituency or anything.

Well of course the current Republicans in the White House and many running for nomination are not true Republicans and are a disgrace to the party as well as the human race.
 
Housing Woes in US Spread Around Globe

by MARK LANDLER
New York Times, April 14


DUBLIN — The collapse of the housing bubble in the United States is mutating into a global phenomenon, with real estate prices swooning from the Irish countryside and the Spanish coast to Baltic seaports and even parts of northern India. This synchronized global slowdown, which has become increasingly stark in recent months, is hobbling economic growth worldwide, affecting not just homes but jobs as well. In Ireland, Spain, Britain and elsewhere, housing markets that soared over the last decade are falling back to earth. Property analysts predict that some countries, like [Ireland], will face an even more wrenching adjustment than that of the United States, including the possibility that the downturn could become a wholesale collapse.

To some extent, the world’s problems are a result of American contagion. As home financing and credit tightens in response to the crisis that began in the subprime mortgage market, analysts worry that other countries could suffer the mortgage defaults and foreclosures that have afflicted California, Florida and other states. Citing the reverberations of the American housing bust and credit squeeze, the International Monetary Fund last Wednesday cut its forecast for global economic growth this year and warned that the malaise could extend into 2009. “The problems in the US are being transmitted to Europe,” said Michael Ball, professor of urban and property economics at the University of Reading in Britain, who studies housing prices. “What’s happening now is an awful lot more grief than we expected.”

For countries like Ireland, where prices were even more inflated than in the United States, it has been a painful education, as homeowners learn the American vocabulary of misery. “We know we’re already in negative equity,” said Emma Linnane, a 31-year-old university administrator. She bought a cozy, one-bedroom apartment in the Dublin suburbs with her fiancé, Paul Colgan, in May 2006, at the peak of the market. They paid $575,000—at least $100,000 more than it would fetch today. “I sometimes get shivers thinking about it,” Ms. Linnane said, “but I’ll let the reality hit me when I go to sell it.”

That reality is spreading. Once-sizzling housing markets in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states are cooling rapidly, as nervous Western Europeans stop buying investment properties in Warsaw, Tallinn, Estonia and other real estate Klondikes. Further east, in India and southern China, prices are no longer surging. With stock markets down sharply after reaching heady levels, people do not have as much cash to buy property. Sales of apartments in Hong Kong, a normally hyperactive market, have slowed recently, with prices for mass-market flats starting to drop. In New Delhi and other parts of northern India, prices have fallen 20% over the last year. Sanjay Dutt, an executive director in the Mumbai office of Cushman & Wakefield, the real estate firm, describes it as an erosion of confidence.

Much of the retrenchment seems to be following the basic law of gravity: what goes up must come down. With low interest rates helping to inflate housing bubbles in many countries, economists said the confluence of falling prices was predictable, if unsettling. This is not the first housing downturn to cross borders, but its reverberations have been amplified by the integration of financial markets. When faulty American mortgages end up on the books of European banks, the problems of the United States aggravate the world’s problems.

Consider Britain, which had one of Europe’s most robust housing markets, with less of an oversupply than in Ireland or Spain. Then last summer came the subprime crisis across the Atlantic. Within two months, mortgage approvals dropped 31%, compared with the previous year. And by March, average housing prices had fallen 2.5%, the largest monthly decline since 1992. “The boom in house prices was actually much bigger here than in the US,” said Kelvin Davidson, an economist at Capital Economics in London. “If anything, people should be more worried than in the US.” Britain has one of the most developed home-financing industries, not far behind that of the United States. The amount of outstanding mortgage debt, as a share of total economic output, is higher there than in the United States, according to a study by the International Monetary Fund. “The UK followed the US into never-never land, pushing mortgages out the door, believing that prices would go up forever,” said Allan Saunderson, the managing editor of Property Finance Europe, a newsletter for investors.

Still, the problems in Britain pale next to those of Spain and Ireland. Residential investment accounts for 12% of the Irish economy and 9% of the Spanish economy, compared with 5% in Britain and 4% in the United States, according to the IMF. The glut of housing has brought new construction to a standstill, driving up unemployment and dimming the prospects for two of Europe’s stellar performers over the last decade. “We’re waking up from the property dream and finding ourselves in a situation where prices are falling in Spain for the first time,” said Fernando Encinar, a founder of Idealista.com, a real estate Web site. In Spain, more than four million homes were built in the last decade, more than in Germany, Britain and France combined. Average house prices tripled in parts of the country, as Spain’s torrid economy attracted immigrants and Northern Europeans snapped up holiday homes along the Costa del Sol. Now, though, thousands of those houses stand empty. The IMF estimates that property is overvalued by more than 15%. With mortgages drying up and prices swooning, speculators who once viewed Spanish property as a no-lose proposition are confronting hard reality.

In 2005, Julian Felipe Fernandez bought three small apartments, as an investment, in a huge development being built outside Madrid. He paid 100,000 euros as a deposit for the units, and now he is eager to sell them to avoid having to taking on a costly mortgage. But with the market stalled, Mr. Fernandez’s asking price is what he paid for them. “Three years ago, it looked like I would be able to flip them for a nice profit before they were finished,” he said. “I just want to get them off my hands, to get rid of this headache.” If he unloads them, he will be lucky. Enric Bueno, head of marketing for Ibusa, a real estate company in Barcelona, said his firm was closing six or seven sales a month, compared with 40 a month a year ago. “Things are really bad,” Mr. Bueno said. “If this goes on for five years, we won’t make it.” Economists have been busy cutting their growth forecasts for Spain, with a few saying that it may stagnate this summer. BBVA, a leading Spanish bank, forecasts that unemployment will rise to an average of 11% this year, from 8.6% in 2007.

Such cutbacks are well under way in Ireland, where the taxi drivers complain that their ranks are being swollen by laid-off home builders. The housing collapse has brought an abrupt end to more than a decade of pell-mell growth that earned Ireland the nickname “the Celtic tiger.” Today, the mood in this country feels like a wake, and not an Irish one. Average house prices fell 7% last year, the most in Europe, according to the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, a British real estate group. They are likely to fall by a similar amount this year. After a 16-year boom that was interrupted only briefly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Ireland has the most overvalued housing market among developed countries, according to the IMF. In its recent economic outlook, the fund calculated that prices are 30% higher than they should be, given Ireland’s economic fundamentals.

For many Irish, accepting that reality is like passing through the seven stages of grief. Some homeowners are still in denial, brokers said, asking $5 million for houses worth no more than $4 million. But developers have begun cutting prices for smaller apartments like the one owned by Emma Linnane. “Last year was our ‘wake up in the middle of the night with sweat pouring down your face’ period,” said David Bewley, a director at the Lisney real estate agency. “Now we’ve grown up.”

Not all the omens are negative. Mr. Bewley said houses were selling again, albeit for 25% less. Ireland has not yet suffered widespread incidences of defaulting mortgages or foreclosures in this downturn, in part because lenders have not been as aggressive as those in the United States. But some worry that the housing meltdown could spoil Ireland’s recipe for success. Like Spain, it attracted lots of foreign workers, many of whom came for well-paying jobs in the construction industry. That fueled the Irish rental market, which has remained buoyant and been a source of income for Ireland’s many real estate speculators. “If the immigrants go back home, will this hurt the rental market?” asked Ronan O’Driscoll, a director in the Dublin office of Savills, a real estate firm. “If that happens, it would definitely cause foreclosures.”
 
diamond said:
im writing home loans right and left.

what crisis?

It's all smoke and mirrors at this point.

Maybe because it's not the bank's money that is being lent, but rather the Fed's (http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h3/Current/).

FED.jpg


The Fed has committed around half of its assets to keeping afloat the insolvent banks. Through creating various facilities, the Fed will loan banks money in exchange for nearly worthless collateral. I wouldn't be surprised if the Fed, Freddie, and Fannie need to be bailed out by taxpayers this year.
 
fg, does that Times article sound accurate to you about the dangers for Ireland in this situation? (Trite cliches about "feels like a wake, and not an Irish one" aside. :wink: )
 
yolland said:
fg, does that Times article sound accurate to you about the dangers for Ireland in this situation? (Trite cliches about "feels like a wake, and not an Irish one" aside. :wink: )

Yes, I'd say that article is a reasonably good summation.

I think we are looking at overall % drops in a par with the worst property crashes that recently occurred in the States, i.e., California/Florida style price drops pretty soon. There is a serious oversupply issue here, just as there was in Florida.


This economist has a good blog on the issues: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/04/02/picking-up-the-pieces-in-property-slowdown
 
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At Countrywide's End, an Emotional CEO

At Countrywide's End, an Emotional CEO
During the last shareholder meeting, Angelo Mozilo emphasizes past accomplishments but doesn't sugarcoat the sale to BofA
by Christopher Palmeri

A subdued Angelo Mozilo got choked up at the last shareholder meeting for Countrywide Financial (CFC). Nearly 70% of Countrywide shareholders approved the firm's sale to Bank of America (BusinessWeek.com, 1/11/08) at the June 25 meeting. The deal—now valued at $2.8 billion—is expected to close July 1.

Mozilo, a butcher's son who co-founded Countrywide nearly 40 years ago, called the event "clearly an end of an era" and promised Bank of America (BAC) shareholders they would "reap the benefits of what we have sowed." At one point Mozilo got emotional, reached for a water bottle and said "Excuse me, this is one of the drawbacks to being Italian." Then after taking a drink, he added, "the only one." At the end of his speech Mozilo received a short and somewhat hesitant standing ovation from the few hundred people in the auditorium, most of whom appeared to be Countrywide employees.

Security was extremely tight at the event, held at Countrywide's campus-like headquarters in suburban Calabasas, Calif., northwest of Los Angeles. Security guards in dark suits and earpieces roamed the premises. Shareholders were asked to show identification before entering the small auditorium where the meeting was held. A memo sent to shareholders prior to the meeting said no cameras or sound equipment would be permitted, there would be no question-and-answer session, and "If any attendee becomes disruptive…we will ask Countrywide security to escort the attendee from the meeting." Mozilo entered the auditorium quickly from the side of the stage just before the meeting began.
 
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