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Old 08-09-2011, 10:56 AM   #201
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I'm starting to feel that Obama doesn't stand a chance in 2012. We've wiped out our 401k gains that had started to come back. We're in another war with Libya, that seems to be forgotten. We just had one of the most tragic losses of life in Afgan, and who knows how Iraq will be in the next year.

I think this 2012 cycle will be one of the ugliest in American history, and I don't know if Obama can weather it.
It will be interesting to see if unemployment improves or if 401Ks regain anything before the 2012 elections. It's a pretty deep hole for Obama at this point.

I think trotting out getting Bin Laden is just going to look desperate at that point, too.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:04 AM   #202
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No one cares about Bin Laden (that was a short lived time that's already done and gone)-just like they don't care about our single greatest casualty day in Afghanistan. Don't care isn't accurate, I have to believe that people care about those deaths. But what dominated the news? 401k losses. When only 3% of people think that terrorism is our number one concern right now, all of that doesn't seem to matter. Tragically it's war that's out of sight, out of mind Except for the families of those people.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:17 AM   #203
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my god... how do intelligent Americans cope with the Tea Party lunatics trying to trash their country??? the Tea Party is the subject of so much derision and ridicule this side of the pond! i wouldn't be able to cope with the prospect of such people vying for power in my country! seriously! i complain about the leaders here, but it's just nothing in comparison... petrifying!


they're more or less the American version of the Front National, but obviously culturally specific and more tied to idealistic notions of "freedom" rather than notions of what "France" or "French" means.

it's not a perfect comparison, but it's about the only one i can make.

FWIW, they are mocked and ridiculed over here as well, but the difference is they were able to make enough noise in 2010 that more mainstream GOP congresspersons and senators now fear being taken out in the primaries by someone from the Tea Party, so everything has shifted rightward and intransigence -- an esteemed characteristic in the eyes of these people -- is now a virtue.

and that's why we were downgraded.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:21 AM   #204
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Right now taking it over McCain and Palin is minimal solace. I know what you mean but it is.

and what's sad is that Obama's campaign in 2012 is going to be about how scary the alternative is. and, when it comes to pretty much anybody but Romney, they are absolutely right.

it's going to be a replay of Bush in 2004. how depressing.

how much do i blame Obama? i first remind myself of his considerable accomplishments. and if you look at his resume, they are substantial.

but he's been ineffective on the biggest issue -- unemployment -- which is also something he has little power to do much about. and he has to deal with fanatics holding a gun to the head of the country.

would someone else have been better? no idea. i will say that HRC would have galvanized the Right as much as Obama, if not more, and we all know what a disaster McCain/Palin would have been.

we get the government we deserve.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:00 PM   #205
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they're more or less the American version of the Front National, but obviously culturally specific and more tied to idealistic notions of "freedom" rather than notions of what "France" or "French" means.

it's not a perfect comparison, but it's about the only one i can make.

FWIW, they are mocked and ridiculed over here as well, but the difference is they were able to make enough noise in 2010 that more mainstream GOP congresspersons and senators now fear being taken out in the primaries by someone from the Tea Party, so everything has shifted rightward and intransigence -- an esteemed characteristic in the eyes of these people -- is now a virtue.

and that's why we were downgraded.
i utterly despise the Front National and all they stand for, but Marine Le Pen is incredibly well educated and that is frightening on a whole different level altogether, and i am very very worried for the next French elections - we already had a close shave last time with JM Le Pen although that was a protest vote as the left votes were completely fragmented, and the French population pulled together and made sure the FN didn't get thru in the second round... but the Tea Party are just just stupid brainless clowns! they would be laughed out of town here! as a European i am baffled as to how they have managed to get such a loud voice and be given the time of day in the political arena...

and yeah, re. being downgraded, the whole debacle really jittered the ROW... it's just awful...
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:19 PM   #206
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No one cares about Bin Laden (that was a short lived time that's already done and gone)-just like they don't care about our single greatest casualty day in Afghanistan. Don't care isn't accurate, I have to believe that people care about those deaths. But what dominated the news? 401k losses. When only 3% of people think that terrorism is our number one concern right now, all of that doesn't seem to matter. Tragically it's war that's out of sight, out of mind Except for the families of those people.
I agree.
I was just thinking of what Bush might have done and what might spark a few of the knuckle-dragger minds.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:31 PM   #207
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Obama has to take his share of the blame. Whatever happened to "the buck stops here"? That's what a leader does.

I voted for the guy but all I can see right now is such a disappointing lack of leadership. Right now I don't feel like he's a leader at all-just a laid back follower who points fingers and blames everyone but himself. Bush, S&P, ________. He is limited in what he can do because of Congress and the whole political mess we are in. But beyond those limits I want him to display at least the leadership qualities that I thought he had when I voted for him.
Could you elaborate on that a little? How might he have better shown leadership with this recent crisis?

Would leadership have been refusing to sign the agreement Congress finally came up with because it didn't have any revenue increases, thereby pushing the country into default? If not, then what should he have done differently? How would you propose he work with people whose sole goal is to ensure that he is not re-elected next year no matter what the cost to the country?
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:40 PM   #208
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but the Tea Party are just just stupid brainless clowns! they would be laughed out of town here! as a European i am baffled as to how they have managed to get such a loud voice and be given the time of day in the political arena...


well, we might think the same thing of the blatant racism of the FN.

understanding some of the nuances of the Tea Party (there are some! at least in their veneration/deification of American history) might be a step beyond what an average European could get, simply due to different histories.

all i'm saying is that there's context and history to understand where the Tea Party comes from, and it might be (understandably) lost on non-Americans. what seems obvious to you is more complex to us, and vice versa.

and in no way is this a defense of the Tea Party!



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the whole debacle really jittered the ROW... it's just awful
a lot of people were talking about Italy being the bigger worry, actually, to the global markets. it's European debt that's just as worrying as American political inefficacy.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:48 PM   #209
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Would leadership have been refusing to sign the agreement Congress finally came up with because it didn't have any revenue increases, thereby pushing the country into default? If not, then what should he have done differently? How would you propose he work with people whose sole goal is to ensure that he is not re-elected next year no matter what the cost to the country?
I understand that and the position he's in. For me he could start by no more blaming the mess he inherited (which he just did again Monday) and no more arguing over S&P and just accept what they did. Take your share of the blame, voice it, maybe get some new people to work for you to give you advice. Cancel your vacation and get Congress back to work too. Get working on job creation and inspiring some confidence instead of blaming and excuses.
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:28 PM   #210
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well, we might think the same thing of the blatant racism of the FN.
actually maybe the FN is worse in that when a highly educated person, a successful lawyer, is at the helm of such offensive ideologies, then "stupidity" in the intellectual sense isn't so much of an excuse and it is more sinister...

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understanding some of the nuances of the Tea Party (there are some! at least in their veneration/deification of American history) might be a step beyond what an average European could get, simply due to different histories.

all i'm saying is that there's context and history to understand where the Tea Party comes from, and it might be (understandably) lost on non-Americans. what seems obvious to you is more complex to us, and vice versa.
yeah i think it is pretty lost on me lol!!

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a lot of people were talking about Italy being the bigger worry, actually, to the global markets. it's European debt that's just as worrying as American political inefficacy.
definitely, Italy is a huge worry, but i think Spain might be the elephant in the room...

let's face it, the whole world is fucked!
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:49 PM   #211
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The news reporter called it A Nightmare On Wall Street
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:46 PM   #212
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reports of Obama's death are greatly exaggerated?


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Obama retakes lead in 2012 generic ballot
By Michael O'Brien - 08/09/11 04:24 PM ET

President Obama jumped ahead of a nameless Republican challenger in Gallup's monthly survey of the generic ballot.

Registered voters shifted toward Obama over the last month, erasing the advantage a generic Republican challenger to the president had enjoyed over the two previous months.

Forty-five percent of registered voters said they would pick Obama, versus 39 percent who would favor "the Republican Party's candidate."

The generic GOP candidate had led Obama 47-39 percent in mid-July, and 44-39 percent in mid-June.

While the generic matchup is an imprecise measure of how Obama might perform against specific Republican candidates, it represents an overall shift in the balance in how voters are thinking about the presidential election, in a broad sense.

The most recent generic test came in a USA Today/Gallup Poll conducted Aug. 4-7, after a politically bruising week in which Obama was forced to relent on a debt-ceiling compromise deal that included only spending cuts and no new revenues, and after the ratings agency Standard & Poor's downgraded its rating of U.S. debt.

The poll has a 4 percent margin of error.
Source:
Obama retakes lead in 2012 generic ballot - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

seems like most Americans don't like the Tea Party/GOP, and that they won the battle but are losing the war:

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Poll: Dems up, GOP down
By: Jennifer Epstein
August 9, 2011 12:55 PM EDT

The debt ceiling debate hurt Americans’ view of Republicans, bolstered their opinion of Democrats, and drove the tea party’s favorable ratings to a new low, a poll on Tuesday found.

Just 33 percent of Americans approve of the Republican Party, while 59 percent disapprove in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Tuesday. That’s a net negative 10-percentage-point shift from less than a month ago, when 41 percent of those surveyed by CNN said they had a favorable view of the GOP while 55 percent had an unfavorable one.

At the same time, Democrats’ numbers have improved slightly, with approval and disapproval each at 47 percent. In July, 45 percent approved and 49 percent disapproved, a net 4-point positive change.

The tea party movement fares slightly worse than the GOP and has its most dismal ratings since CNN began asking about the movement in polls in January 2010. Thirty-one percent said they see it favorably while 51 percent see it unfavorably. In July, those numbers were 37 percent and 47 percent, respectively.

Of those surveyed, just 41 percent say they think the House member in their district should be reelected — the lowest ever — while 49 percent said the member does not deserve another term. A year ago, 52 percent supported reelection of their representatives while 42 percent opposed it.

Meanwhile, ratings for leaders in Congress are mixed, but all are low. Republican House Speaker John Boehner’s favorable rating in the poll is 33 percent, while his unfavorable rating is 40 percent. An additional 27 percent say they’ve never heard of him or have no opinion. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi does worse, with 31 percent of those surveyed saying they see her favorably while 51 percent see her unfavorably.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Democrat, gets the approval of 28 percent of those surveyed, while 39 percent disapprove and 33 percent say they have never heard of him or have no opinion. For Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, the numbers are a bit worse, with 21 percent favorability, 39 percent unfavorability and 40 percent say they haven’t heard of him or have no opinion.

The poll was conducted Aug. 5-7 and surveyed 1,008 adults. The error margin is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Poll: Dems up, GOP down - POLITICO.com Print View
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:27 PM   #213
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Obama has to take his share of the blame. Whatever happened to "the buck stops here"? That's what a leader does.

I voted for the guy but all I can see right now is such a disappointing lack of leadership. Right now I don't feel like he's a leader at all-just a laid back follower who points fingers and blames everyone but himself. Bush, S&P, ________. He is limited in what he can do because of Congress and the whole political mess we are in. But beyond those limits I want him to display at least the leadership qualities that I thought he had when I voted for him.
His biggest problem is trying to be a great compromiser. You can't compromise with people who are actively working to make sure you fail. Plus the way he negotiates, it's like he starts off at the bottom line and has no room to maneuver.

Another issue is he was dragged too far to the right, (along with the rest of the Democrats) yet they still call him a liberal socialist. He's basically in line with Bush's policies, and his health care reforms were almost the same ones that Nixon proposed in the 70s and almost the same one the Republicans proposed in the 90s.

In this instance, is back was against the wall. They had to pass the debt ceiling. It was that or default. He could have negotiated better or at least tied it to renewing the Bush Tax cuts last year or something.
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:33 PM   #214
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You're right BVS and it's a struggle. The risk of having someone like McCain was too great, so giving Obama the nod was the right way to go.

but there really isn't anyone who would be right to fix this. Reagan would not have as well, considering he really started this whole joining up with Wall Street crap anyway (or at least was a lot more visible considering who he put on his staff).

I'm not sure we could find anyone who would be the liberal tea party. You'd have tea party who are against taxes, versus the liberal party who would be for 100% taxes. I just don't think you could find anyone towards that spectrum, or the financing to go with it.

Just imagine if the Left were as organized, and committed to getting things done as the Right. Obama may have gotten his policies past the first two years with no problem, but there's always bickering within the Left. Where the right is so afraid of the extreme, they all fall in line despite quite a few disagreeing with the method.

I'm starting to feel that Obama doesn't stand a chance in 2012. We've wiped out our 401k gains that had started to come back. We're in another war with Libya, that seems to be forgotten. We just had one of the most tragic losses of life in Afgan, and who knows how Iraq will be in the next year.

I think this 2012 cycle will be one of the ugliest in American history, and I don't know if Obama can weather it.
Actually, I think he'll win.

What may happen is we'll see a split in the Republican party when they nominate someone more moderate. I really think the Wall Street wing of the party who are the real financiers and the real power behind the party are going to say enough is enough, we created a monster with this Tea Party, now we have to marginalize them. We may see the tea party and the far right wing bolt, hold their own convention and nominate someone like Bachman.

If that doesn't happen, I really think he'll hold on to the independent moderates who will pick him over the sacrificial lamb the Republicans would nominate. Plus November 2012 is a long time away. Anything could happen between now and then.
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:46 PM   #215
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Arizona Republic, Aug. 9
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U.S. Sen. John McCain's town-hall meeting Monday in Gilbert [AZ] broke down into a shouting match at times as "tea-party" activists directed their anger and frustration toward the senator over issues ranging from his characterization of them as "hobbits" to the nation's sagging economy.

At one point during McCain's first town hall since last fall, a heated verbal exchange between two men prompted the senator to call for "a modicum of courtesy" and sent town officials scurrying for more security.

The meeting began with a 15-minute speech loaded with criticism of President Barack Obama, whom McCain blamed for a surging national debt and the poor economy...But the vastly conservative crowd began to turn on the senator when he opened it up for questions, and it became clear McCain had as many critics as supporters in the room.

Kelly Townsend, a Gilbert resident and member of the Greater Phoenix Tea Party, demanded that McCain apologize for a comment made last month on the Senate floor about "tea party hobbits." ...At first, McCain became defensive. "Is there anything wrong that I said?" McCain asked. "I don't know what to apologize for." McCain explained he was reading from a Wall Street Journal editorial, and he meant the notion of passing a balanced-budget amendment now is fantasy, like hobbits. "I'm sorry if it was misunderstood," McCain said. "I'm not sorry for what I said. I mean, why should I when it's the fact?"

Tea-party activists called McCain "out of touch" when the senator said he didn't know about United Nations "Agenda 21." One man described the initiative as a "takeover of the United States of America by taking over our farms." "First, our firearms, then our farms," another man added. McCain said no Congress would allow that to happen, but that didn't satisfy several in the room who subscribed to the theory.

Gilbert has been a hotbed for the conservative tea-party movement for a few years, and groups have organized anti-tax rallies there and had a growing influence on local elections.
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:52 PM   #216
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... but the Tea Party are just just stupid brainless clowns! they would be laughed out of town here! as a European i am baffled as to how they have managed to get such a loud voice and be given the time of day in the political arena...
Let's just say... watching the bailouts of Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain -- the European austerity riots, the chronic double-digit unemployment, your oppressive tax rates and the unraveling of your cradle-to-grave social welfare utopia... makes the Tea Party message of limited government, economic freedom and low taxes all the more appealing.

Laugh all you want but if the Tea Party doesn't get its way over here we figure we can take Paris in less than 48 hours. Ce n'est pas difficile de faire.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:14 PM   #217
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I really think the Wall Street wing of the party who are the real financiers and the real power behind the party are going to say enough is enough, we created a monster with this Tea Party, now we have to marginalize them.

i think W. Bush was the last mainstream candidate who could speak convincingly to the Jesus Camp Crowd and Wall Street.

McCain couldn't. Romney speaks to one, but not the other, and he has no appeal on abortion (flip-flop) and SSM has lost it's traction as a genuinely divisive social issue. in fact, supporting it helps progressives more than hating it helps conservatives.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:55 PM   #218
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Laugh all you want but if the Tea Party doesn't get its way over here we figure we can take Paris in less than 48 hours. Ce n'est pas difficile de faire.
Ooooh, Hollywood and remakes these days - should do a kind of Lampoons update with a new spin, series of films about Tea Partiers Taking Europe. Old Man Tea Party confronted by people who like sex and healthcare, but they turn out to not be the antichrist. HILARITY ENSUES.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:31 PM   #219
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Ooooh, Hollywood and remakes these days - should do a kind of Lampoons update with a new spin, series of films about Tea Partiers Taking Europe. HILARITY ENSUES.


Can't top this one.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:41 PM   #220
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I understand that and the position he's in. For me he could start by no more blaming the mess he inherited (which he just did again Monday) and no more arguing over S&P and just accept what they did. Take your share of the blame, voice it, maybe get some new people to work for you to give you advice. Cancel your vacation and get Congress back to work too. Get working on job creation and inspiring some confidence instead of blaming and excuses.
Who is he blaming--that doesn't deserve to be called out (i.e. the Republicans)?

What exactly did Obama do wrong though--how was he ill-advised? Who should be fired?

And how is Obama supposed to get working on job creation? How is any president supposed to create jobs anyway?

Not meaning to pick with you on this issue--you know I you--I just want to probe your thinking on this.
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