so, the terrorists win...

[martha]

This is interesting. Clearly this guys loves terrorists and wants to see them win.

Take a sensible approach to air security - CNN.com

It is interesting to note that in all the recent terrorist attempts on airplanes nothing actually happened, no one was killed or injured. The aim of terrorism is societal disruption. With these new security measures, we have handed the terrorists a victory, even when they failed to detonate a bomb that caused casualties.

I like his ideas, but the Fear Party Republicans would never let this happen.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by martha

I still refuse to roll over while my Constitution means less and less as each year goes by.

You do realize that, in another person's mouth, this is the exact same rationale used to support gun rights.

Semiautomatic rifles aren't protected under the Constitution. Neither is violating security procedures put in place for the public's safety.

[martha]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

You do realize that, in another person's mouth, this is the exact same rationale used to support gun rights.

I understand that, and, if you have the time or inclination, feel free to search and find out my thoughts on that subject.

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Neither is violating security procedures put in place for the public's safety.

When have I advocated violating security procedures? My problem is with the unwarranted searches of this country's citizens in the name of "safety."

[kramwest1]

Originally Posted by martha

This is interesting. Clearly this guys loves terrorists and wants to see them win.

Take a sensible approach to air security - CNN.com



I like his ideas, but the Fear Party Republicans would never let this happen.

Sensible is right.
The reason this more common sense approach probably won't happen is because there is nothing to sell. We have this tool/gadget/technology mentality when it comes to security instead of...OMG!...trusting in the training of the security people to screen for those with malicious intent. I don't know how powerful the lobbying industry is for those with security "devices" to sell, but I can take a guess.

I really like that he points out that it takes more than explosive underwear to bring down an airplane. Terrorists can smuggle C-4 up their asses, but it would take a lot of funny-walking bad guys to bring down a single plane.

[Butterscotch]

Found this quote, thought of this thread


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." --Benjamin Franklin

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by martha

My problem is with the unwarranted searches of this country's citizens in the name of "safety."

The definition of a warranted and unwarranted search seems to be a somewhat dubious one. Given the rise in terrorist activity over the past few years, particularly around planes, I'm willing to give up a certain degree of privacy if it means ensuring the safety of myself and my fellow passengers. If I'm not interested in doing so, I don't have to fly.

And blaming the "Fear Party" -- thus politicizing the issue -- ignores the fact that the new security procedures were put in place with Democrats at the helm. Republicans and Democrats haven't made Americans "afraid"; terrorists who used planes to knock down big buildings (and who have since blown up subways, slaughtered people in hotels, and set off bombs around the world -- or tried to) have. Doing a little research on terrorist activity this year alone, I'm surprised Americans aren't more afraid, to be honest. (Part of why I put the word in quotations.)

[martha]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

If I'm not interested in doing so, I don't have to fly.

What else are you willing to give up to feel "safe"?

[corianderstem]

It doesn't make me feel any safer, because the terrorists will just move on to another method. And there's nothing stopping some terrorist from just waltzing into an airport and blowing himself up inside the airport.

I wish I remember who it was, but someone on one of the Yammering Heads channels the other day brought up an excellent point. The odds of dying while driving are so much higher than the odds of dying while on a plane. And no one is panicking about that - yeah, there are things in place to make it safer, but it's never completely safe.

We as a society have decided there's an acceptable level of risk involved with driving. Why is there no acceptable level of risk involved with flying? Your plane might crash - but we fly anyway.

Whomever it was (really wish I could remember - he was a senator or congressman) said that no one in any level of power would dare suggest such a thing, but that it was a conversation worth having.

Is there anything they can do to make us completely safe? I don't think there is.

[pgv]

Originally Posted by corianderstem

Is there anything they can do to make us completely safe? I don't think there is.

This is exactly the point. So the sooner people start getting out of this hyper-suspicious mindset, and start living life a bit more, the better for all considered.

[martha]

Originally Posted by corianderstem

Whomever it was (really wish I could remember - he was a senator or congressman) said that no one in any level of power would dare suggest such a thing, but that it was a conversation worth having.

At least someone's starting to talk about it.

I'd rather have the freedom to make my own choices and possibly incur some risk rather than have no freedoms at all in the pursuit of an idea of "safety."

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by partygirlvox

The sooner people start getting out of this hyper-suspicious mindset, and start living life a bit more, the better for all considered.

Has anyone on this board travelled lately? Are most travellers at airports cowering in fear -- or looking over their shoulders, or worse, turning in Muslim travellers out of suspicion? Or are most travellers simply annoyed by the inconvenience, but focused on primarily getting to their destination? I don't know anyone who makes panicked phone calls and starts stockpiling water and gas masks when the Terrorist Alert goes from Yellow to Hazel.

I think the fear of Americans is overrated.

And comparing the fear of driving to the fear of terrorism is a bit of a non sequitor. Your car doesn't wait for you to loosen your seat belt before it decides to kill you. Unless you're driving a Dodge Dart.

[PhilsFan]

The media says we're afraid and says the government should do something about it, so the government does and then the media says we're afraid of the government until the next scary thing happens and the media says we're afraid and that the government should do something about it.

[Butterscotch]

Originally Posted by martha

What else are you willing to give up to feel "safe"?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." --Benjamin Franklin

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Has anyone on this board travelled lately? Are most travellers at airports cowering in fear -- or looking over their shoulders, or worse, turning in Muslim travellers out of suspicion? Or are most travellers simply annoyed by the inconvenience, but focused on primarily getting to their destination? I don't know anyone who makes panicked phone calls and starts stockpiling water and gas masks when the Terrorist Alert goes from Yellow to Hazel.

I think the fear of Americans is overrated.

And comparing the fear of driving to the fear of terrorism is a bit of a non sequitor. Your car doesn't wait for you to loosen your seat belt before it decides to kill you. Unless you're driving a Dodge Dart.

My fear of being killed by an Islamist terrorist is as close to zero as to be insignificant. I'm much more afraid of what the neo-liberal elite and their securocrat factotum are going to foist on us next in the interests of "protecting the populace", or the wars they invent on false pretexts and lies.

Orwell predicted all this, you know. And Huxley.

As partygirlvox put it:

This is exactly the point. So the sooner people start getting out of this hyper-suspicious mindset, and start living life a bit more, the better for all considered.

As the authoritarian, controlling value system of the securocrats is opposed to mine, I try to ignore everything they say in so far as possible. I don't believe a single word that comes out of their mouths, they have a proven and documented record of inventing terrorist threats, hyping up the dangers of such genuine threats that do exist, and, in some cases, just blatant lies and falsehoods.

The alleged "Global War on Terror" is basically a nice cover story for criminal white pyschopaths enriching themselves by killing impoverished brown-skinned peasants and stealing what few resources they possess. It has always been thus, and continues to be thus.

[yolland]

Are there posters depicting Merkel as Stalin yet? Or maybe Catherine the Great...

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by yolland

Are there posters depicting Merkel as Stalin yet? Or maybe Catherine the Great...

Wrong thread, surely?

[corianderstem]

Maybe yolland is suggesting that both Merkel and Catherine the Great would have been all for full cavity searches at the airports?

[yolland]

Well, since everything apparently one way or another boils down to a referendum on the EU neo-liberal despotism right now, it just seemed as good a place as any.

I have no doubt Catherine the Great would've approved of full cavity searches, as far as that goes. Maybe also "bomb-sniffing" Borzoi packs whose true purpose is to rip apart resisters from limb to limb. Merkel, I don't know, she has that history of getting all squirmy around touchy-feely people.

[martha]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I think the fear of Americans is overrated.

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Given the rise in terrorist activity over the past few years, particularly around planes, I'm willing to give up a certain degree of privacy if it means ensuring the safety of myself and my fellow passengers. If I'm not interested in doing so, I don't have to fly.

You're willing to give up your Constitutional rights or opt out of flying, yet you say the fear of Americans is overrated?

[financeguy]

Originally Posted by yolland

Well, since everything apparently one way or another boils down to a referendum on the EU neo-liberal despotism right now, it just seemed as good a place as any.

I think perhaps you are being mildy sarcastic at my expense, but there are plenty of critiques of the EU project - mainly from the far left but some from the right, particularly British sources in respect of the latter - which argued that the EU was precisely intended as that all along - a kind of a stalking horse for neo-liberal globalism, as it were. A fundamentally anti-democratic project foisted upon the populace by mad, authoritarian power-freaks, to be crude.