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From what I've read in textbooks and gleamed from a long history of listening to Dr. Drew Pinksy dole out staggeringly accurate diagnoses to callers on Loveline, a "freeze up, don't make a noise" reaction during a sexual assault is a big red flag that may indicate prior sexual abuse in the victim's past.

Heh. Thanks to Loveline and Dr Drew, now when I hear a grown woman speaking with a little girl voice, I assume she was a victim of sexual abuse.

They also had to make a volunteer "training" video in which they had to talk about what they did "wrong" and how they could have "prevented" the rapes.

I was reading about the Peace Corps story yesterday, too. Pretty horrible. The discussion I was reading had some interesting anecdotes from people who had been in the PC or knew people that were, and it sounds like the PC could stand to have some more basic training on the cultures they're living in. Not "how to avoid" rape, but just things to know about cultural norms, including gender roles or whatnot that could help them get by a bit easier.
 
The point is you have no idea what sort of dynamic my friend and I have, so calling me self righteous is uniformed and ironically, pretty god damn self righteous

So exactly what kind of dynamic does one have with a friend that makes it OK to call them stupid after they've been a victim of a crime?
 
Give me a fucking break. I'm not going to sit here and justify myself to you. Fact remains, youre completely off base with judging me on a conversation you weren't even there for. You're completely clueless
 
It was broad daylight and I thought I would be okay once I got to the liquor store so once I got there, I went to the payphone to make a phone call and didn't realize he was right behind me. I just heard his voice calling me "little slut" and "whore" and then felt his hand reach between my legs from behind. I was groped repeatedly and he pressed against me from behind, calling me names the entire time. And all I did was cry, I was too scared to even push him away. The only reason he stopped was because someone saw him and yelled. And then he just walked away casually, like nothing had happened.

I guess I should add that far from being dressed to attract attention, I was 8 months pregnant and wearing maternity jeans and a huge, long sleeved blouse. But I was the perfect, passive looking potential victim and he keyed right in on that. Who knows, had I shown some street smarts and been a little more confident, he may have left me alone. It was obvious his intention was humiliation and power and a more assertive woman wouldn't have fit his profile for a victim.
Ugh. How brazen of him to do it in broad daylight where others might see. This is a perfect case in point. If he went after the seemingly assertive woman in the short skirt, he'd get elbowed in the teeth, at the very least.

:hug::hug:

I normally try to stay aware of my surroundings, and despite being petite and hardly intimidating, I do my best to project my inner-confidence. That night, however, I was distracted, had my head down, and wasn't paying attention. Voila, perfect target. I didn't hear him follow me up the walkway to the front door of my building and he followed me right in.

It had nothing to do with what I was wearing, I'm sure. It was late October and snowing already, so I was hardly dressed to impress.

BAW, that's awful, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

But that brings to mind another "you should have" or "why didn't you" that you hear in these situations. There are some people who might ask "Why didn't you scream? Why didn't you shout for help?" Or in a rape/date rape situation, someone might say "Well, didn't you keep fighting back? Did you keep yelling 'no'?"

Everyone reacts to being assaulted differently. Some people might be too frightened of being hurt. Some people might feel paralyzed. And for many people, while you might talk a good game about what you would do if it happened to you, you might react completely differently.

It's still assault or rape even if the woman isn't calling for help or fighting and screaming.
I think this is something else that should be a huge part of what we teach young girls about street smarts - fighting back.

As I said, I'm petite, strong, but not necessarily strong enough to overpower this guy who was maybe a bit taller than average, but very muscular and very aggressive. I still have a faint scar on my back from when he slammed me against the mailboxes on the wall. Pure survival instinct kicked in, as well as only one thought over and over, which was 'HELL NO'. I screamed, cursed a blue streak, kicked, and shoved him so hard, several times, that he couldn't get a hold of me again. It was just a few seconds before he gave up and bolted. The police said repeatedly that I did exactly the right thing. I shudder to think of what would've happened if I froze.

I'd like to see every little girl brought up with that same determination, understanding of her own self-worth and right to her boundaries. I think all women imagine how scary it might be to be attacked and how we might react, which I certainly did. When it actually happened, though, it was a pure gut reaction of anger that he felt the right to lay a hand on me.

I want to add that I'm sorry for the experience so many of the women posting here on this forum have had. It's shocking and disturbing how many women have been through situations like this. I appreciate your courage and candor in sharing your stories.
The statistics are pretty staggering. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I *think* it's something like half of all women will be sexually harassed or assualted in their lifetime. :slant:
 
Whether I said the comment to my friend, in my head, or to someone else is moot. I just don't appreciate being called self righteous by a complete stranger who has no clue about me or my friends. And really, it has no bearing on the rest of the conversation anyway. I'd be more than happy if we stayed on track
 
An Open Note to Fathers with Young Boys - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

I do not know you, nor do you know me. Someday that may change. You see, I have two beautiful young daughters (one just turned four and the other is now 2) that may someday come in contact with your son. It may just be for a passing moment on the street, or it may be much more. Either way we need to talk now in order to better prepare for this possible future event. If we wait until then it will be too late to make a difference.

My daughters are precious to me and I have high hopes and expectations for their lives. Those hopes and dreams may very well hang on the man your son becomes. Someday they will grow up and meet someone special. They will each find someone and fall deeply in love. They will no longer be my babies and instead they will be some young mans bride, possibly your son. I will no longer be the one to protect them, and love on them and make them feel as special as they deserve. I won't be by their sides to lead them or guide them and show them the way they should go. All of these things will be up to your son. You see now why this is so important to me? Your son means a lot to me. I pray for him nightly, and I pray for you as well. This is a huge task and I want him to be ready for it.

It's up to you to raise your son in a way that will allow him to become the man he needs to be. Without you my daughter has little hope of a bright future. The landscape of America is littered with broken women who have had their lives ruined by boys who were never taught how to be men. Please don't allow my daughter to become one of them. Please raise your son to be the man you would want to marry your daughter.

The task is overwhelming. I know you are busy and life gets in the way but I am asking you to make this a priority. I can't tell you how to do this, every situation is different and you must do what works in yours. I do know that there are some things that are important though.

Love your wife.

When you love your wife you are modeling to your son how he should love my daughter in the future. Most of what he knows about how to love comes from watching you in day to day moments that you may never know about. He
will become you in this area. Treat your wife like she deserves to be treated. Shower her with praise, serve her and give your life completely over to her. Let your son see you doing this.

Spend time with him.

There is a debate over whether a child needs quantity or quality time. I believe strongly that they need both. Don't rob your son of this. There are a lot of important things going on in life but there are very few as important as this. Help him build a strong foundation for life to come during these times. He will learn a great deal from just being by you. He will learn even more from talking to you. Share your hopes, dreams, successes and failures with him and have him do the same. He needs you to be 'all in' on this and so do my girls.

Be the man you want him to be.

It's a scary thought as fathers knowing that our boys will someday grow up and be like us. It's not a guarantee, but the saying that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" proves true more often than not. Knowing that gives you a great advantage though. In order to have your son grow up to be the man he needs to be you simply need to become the man you should be. Strive to grow and learn. Not one of us is perfect, but we can be perfectible. Let your son see you growing. When you fall, apologize and learn from it. Your son will respect you even more for it.

There is a lot resting in your hands. The future of both of our families relies on you. My daughters deserve a great man, and your son deserves to be that man for her. Please give it everything you have. I will do everything in my power to raise my daughters to be the women that your son deserves as well. Someday we may stand at the back of a church watching our children getting married. We will shake hands and smile knowing that we both did everything we would to give them a good chance at life. I look forward to that day.
 




ok, i find little to actually disagree with in here in the specifics and it sounds like generically good parenting, but it's overall tone strikes me as paternalistic and condescending -- "our women need our protection, men, your job is to serve your women for they are delicate creatures in need of your strength" -- and rooted in old gender-role identities, and comes a little bit too close to that icky, awful Jon Mayer song "Daughters."

So fathers, be good to your daughters
Daughters will love like you do
Girls become lovers who turn into mothers
So mothers, be good to your daughters too

Boys, you can break
You'll find out how much they can take
Boys will be strong
And boys soldier on
But boys would be gone without the warmth from
A womans good, good heart

On behalf of every man
Looking out for every girl
You are the guide and the weight of her world

So fathers, be good to your daughters
Daughters will love like you do
Girls become lovers who turn into mothers
So mothers, be good to your daughters too


creepy and sexist at the same time, and seems to indicate that the purpose of a woman is to become a mother who will raise a daughter he will want to have sex with, and the purpose of a man is to protect his delicate lady-child so that a version of himself will want to marry her.

or am i overreacting? but a line like this:
Without you my daughter has little hope of a bright future.

it's a bit like ... well, gosh, maybe she doesn't get married, but she could be an astrophysicist or something.
 
creepy and sexist at the same time, and seems to indicate that the purpose of a woman is to become a mother who will raise a daughter he will want to have sex with, and the purpose of a man is to protect his delicate lady-child so that a version of himself will want to marry her.

You got that much out of a John Mayer song? Who knew his music was so deep? Seems appropriate though that in a thread about 'sluts' his name should pop up.
 
but do you find it at least a little bit patronizing?

Treat your wife like she deserves to be treated. Shower her with praise, serve her and give your life completely over to her. Let your son see you doing this.
 
I'm 100% with Irvine on this one. It's nothing more than a self absorbed, holier than thou load of masturbatory drivel. Who died and made him the voice of reason? And really, is there anything more abrasive than telling other people how to raise their kids?
 
but do you find it at least a little bit patronizing?

I have yet to hear a wife complain about being treated the way she deserves to be treated, by being showered with praise, or by being served. I think a lot of husbands could stand to be reminded that they should be loving and serving their wives.

The best advice I ever got about parenting: "be a good father by being a good husband."
 
True, but who gave you that advice? Surely not some random twat on the internet who wrote an 'open letter' to you so that his daughters lives aren't ruined by your shitty parenting. This guy is just looking for a pat on the back
 
ok, i find little to actually disagree with in here in the specifics and it sounds like generically good parenting, but it's overall tone strikes me as paternalistic and condescending -- "our women need our protection, men, your job is to serve your women for they are delicate creatures in need of your strength" -- and rooted in old gender-role identities, and comes a little bit too close to that icky, awful Jon Mayer song "Daughters."




creepy and sexist at the same time, and seems to indicate that the purpose of a woman is to become a mother who will raise a daughter he will want to have sex with, and the purpose of a man is to protect his delicate lady-child so that a version of himself will want to marry her.

or am i overreacting? but a line like this:


it's a bit like ... well, gosh, maybe she doesn't get married, but she could be an astrophysicist or something.

I'm 100% with Irvine on this one. It's nothing more than a self absorbed, holier than thou load of masturbatory drivel. Who died and made him the voice of reason? And really, is there anything more abrasive than telling other people how to raise their kids?

yep, i'm with Irvine and JT on this... came across to me as an extremely cringeworthy, clichéd, patronising piece of sentimental nauseating Hallmark-style drivel

that letter just smacks of dependency, is extremely sexist to my mind, and is already making the daughter out to be a potential "victim" at the mercy of some man... maybe the mother/father should concentrate on raising an independent woman with a mind of her own who knows her self-worth and is equipped to simply kick the ass of any man stupid enough to mess her about... and vice-versa obviously!
 
that letter just smacks of dependency, is extremely sexist to my mind, and is already making the daughter out to be a potential "victim" at the mercy of some man... maybe the mother/father should concentrate on raising an independent woman with a mind of her own who knows her self-worth and is equipped to simply kick the ass of any man stupid enough to mess her about... and vice-versa obviously!


yeah, this is what i'm inclined to think. i do think it's a nice thought to raise your child to be the kind of person you'd want them to marry, but there's an implied sense of victimhood in the advice that i'm just not comfortable with, well intended though it might be.

i don't "shower" Memphis with praise, nor do i expect him to do that to me. excessive praise not only rings false (should we get marriage participation trophies too?), but it also implies that we have nothing to build our self-worth upon beyond the opinions of our spouses. i make sure to point it out when i think he's done something particularly well, and i probably brag about him a bit more than i should about him to other people. i rave about how well he bakes or his photography, but i don't constantly tell him he looks gorgeous/perfect/amazing and that every where he goes he sprinkles fairy dust.

and what does it mean "deserve to be treated." is there a way to treat a wife? is that different than how you'd treat a human being? do we have to treat women differently then men, because they are weak and need our protection as well as our affirmation and acceptance and obviously can't stand on their own two feet?

i'd say the golden rule applies in a marriage: do unto others as you'd do unto yourself. but then, my relationship is apparently one of radical equality, so maybe that's where i get into trouble. i don't see women as potential wives/lovers, i see them as friends and co-workers (i.e., i'd never use the phrase "female friend" in the way that some men do to describe opposite gender friends ... they're just a "friend"). perhaps i don't get this victimhood and what my "responsibility" towards women en masse is as a man with a dangerous penis as well as i should ...

(sorry, i know we're taking this a bit further than it probably was intended to go but, hey, that's what FYM is for, right?)
 
I tend to agree that at least some parts of the article are cloyingly through to troublesomely paternalistic. (I also tend to assume that's why anitram chose to post it in this particular thread; I could be wrong.) Especially,
I won't be by their sides to lead them or guide them and show them the way they should go. All of these things will be up to your son.
A spouse is a partner, not a leader, guide, or substitute parent.
Without you my daughter has little hope of a bright future. The landscape of America is littered with broken women who have had their lives ruined by boys who were never taught how to be men.
This one bothers me the most. People who aren't already cracked seldom "break" from the strains of sharing their lives with partners they themselves chose. If your daughter is attracted to "boys who were never taught how to be men," then guess what, that tells you as much about her unresolved issues as it does about theirs. And anyone of either sex who looks to their partner to resolve said issues for them is bad news.
Treat your wife like she deserves to be treated. Shower her with praise, serve her and give your life completely over to her.
Mature men and women don't want to be fawned over, catered to or clung to by their partners, but to be shown respect, thoughtfulness, affection, desire, and to always keep challenging each other and aspiring together to become something greater than the sum of their parts. A little strategic doting now and then can be welcome and necessary for both partners, but as an overall metaphor for the relationship, this is way too stagnant and way too little about the 'We.'


To be fair to the author, sometimes it's easier than it should be to make hair-trigger associations between certain familiar-sounding phrases and the oppressive social practices some people fond of using them follow. It's not like he anywhere says "And I won't give my daughters foolish ideas about pursuing ambitious careers, or thinking their lives could ever be complete without children" or stuff like that, and as far as it goes, there's nothing he asks for here that's really incompatible with raising men who'd accept (or even specifically want) such a partner. It is true that it's much, much harder to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at a stable and productive marriage (should they want that) than it is to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at becoming an astrophysicist (should they want that). It's perfectly normal to think from time to time about one's children as future partners to others, and to wonder what kind of people will fall in love with them, because for virtually everyone, that particular need will be a constant throughout their adult lives, and the choices they make to satisfy it will have profound effects on them. And thinking about this is probably especially common with children of the opposite sex, because (so you think) you understand 'the kind of people' who'll fall in love with them that much better, which is both a reassuring and unnerving thought. They're wholly different individuals from you, you realize that more and more with every day they age, and at times that can be frightening, tempting you to turn your thoughts to regulating their external social environment as best you can, because the internal one often doesn't seem to make much sense anymore. Also, this guy's daughters are young, all children that age are highly vulnerable to pretty much everything, and at times you can't help but see all the good and promising things about them through that prism.

Anyhow, it's a long way from there to the noxious variety of paternalism that considers "Dress like a slut, get raped" morally acceptable advice. Any connection would lie in the fact that the kind of man who tends to think of women as achingly innocent, angelic, fragile beings is the flip side of the kind who tends to think of them as titillatingly treacherous, bestial, domitable ones. Neither is desirable in a husband, or a father.
 
A spouse is a partner, not a leader, guide, or substitute parent.

Actually, some psychologists have posited the notion that spouses are indeed substitute parents -- suggesting the idea that, at least subconsciously, human beings seek spouses who can address and heal deficiencies in our relationships with our parents. It's not a radical notion that we seek what we didn't get from our parents in our spouse, so from that perspective, it's not insulting for the author to stress that good parenting (or a lack thereof) will have a specific effect on daughters, as well as sons.

People who aren't already cracked seldom "break" from the strains of sharing their lives with partners they themselves chose.

But given the depths of relational dysfunction we are capable of, how healthy can we say our choices are?

it's much, much harder to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at a stable and productive marriage (should they want that) than it is to raise children you're reasonably confident will have a good shot at becoming an astrophysicist (should they want that).

This. As the father of three small girls, I'm well aware of the fact that I can't control who they're going to be attracted to and who they may one day marry, but I'd be lying if I said that it's not something I think about already. I know that much of my children's psychological/spiritual/emotional health is up to me and my wife, but I'm also aware that there are a host of influences out there that work in opposition to whatever good we're trying to do. As a result, I have no problem with fathers encouraging other fathers to raise the bar, so to speak. I don't find it particularly insulting either, but then, I don't think I'm perfect. (FYM long ago cured me of that assumption! :))
 
Respect is a word that has a distinct meaning. What do you mean by honor, more specifically? I'm pretty sure that's what Irvine's point is.
 
It would help me to know what either of you take it to mean as I'm conufsed as to what about that word was enough to give you pause.

I'm not sure how to describe what I mean by it, as it's more of a feeling to me.

If you want to break it down, let's try a couple of dictionary examples:
"2. a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family."

"3. high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor."

"13. to hold in honor or high respect; revere: to honor one's parents."

It seems like respect is pretty synonymous with honour. Honour might be taking it a step further. To hold another person with a specific distinction or reverence. In that case, I'd say I'd like to see men have respect for all women at least, but definitely hold their wives/girlfriends/partners/family with a special distinction. I think if that was sincerely instilled in boys from a young age, not just out of duty or expectation, it would alter their actions towards the opposite sex.

I hope that made more sense.
 
i view women as equals. i wouldn't honor someone who is my equal, but i would respect their status as my equal.

this also means that women can be terrible human beings, cruel, selfish, abusive, callous, etc. they can lie, cheat, steal, murder, hate, and do terrible things. i don't think anyone deserves special status because of their gender. and this is what everyone's problem with that article seemed to be. it seemed to make women into something "special" by virtue of their gender. that they need our protection and men must learn to shepherd them through a dangerous, terrible world.

all that said, it is true that some people will use someone's gender as an excuse to degrade another human being in the way that they might use race, class, religion, or sexual orientation. i think it is true that there is a long history of discrimination on the basis of gender, and women are the biggest victims of sexual crimes because of heterosexual men. thus, we all need to be aware of this historical legacy, as well as be aware of one's potential for being the victim of a sexual crime because one is a woman, as well as be aware of the gender-specific stereotypes and expectations and double standards that operate upon women.

however, i don't think the mere possession of a vagina qualifies one for sainthood (nor do i think that's what you mean ... i'm just contesting the word "honor"). or, a vagina is no more saintly than a penis.

my late grandmother deserved my honor because of who she was to our family, for example, and her gender was part of that, certainly. but you should not honor her just because she has a vagina. does that make sense?

these are fine, distinct, small points, and i'm really not disagreeing with you. i just find that the placing of women on a pedestal is in it's own way degrading and just a re-imagining of the patriarchy. and that gross John Mayer song is, i think, a perfect example of that.

for some reason, i'm not going to bed and i'm watching Terminator 2. what i like about this one, as opposed to, say, the original Terminator, is that Linda Hamilton is a deadly killing machine who's hard and hardened and angry and pissed off and tries to kill the Skynet guy. i prefer this than to the original Terminator when she had to be protected, and when the original Terminator hunted down all the Sarah Connors in the phone book. this one is a much more believable human being with complexities and nuances that are not all good. a mistake that can be made, say, in cinema or television, is to take any sort of oppressed minority and, through the impulse to combat stereotypes, turn said minorities into superior human beings than everyone else. remember that show Touched By An Angel? all the angles were, like, black and Irish. gosh, you mean the most obviously oppressed are actually the most righteous of us all? wow, how revelatory. to me, that's patronizing.

and those are the thoughts i have at 1:23am when i should be asleep.
 
It would help me to know what either of you take it to mean as I'm conufsed as to what about that word was enough to give you pause.

I'm not sure how to describe what I mean by it, as it's more of a feeling to me.

If you want to break it down, let's try a couple of dictionary examples:
"2. a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family."

"3. high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor."

"13. to hold in honor or high respect; revere: to honor one's parents."

It seems like respect is pretty synonymous with honour. Honour might be taking it a step further. To hold another person with a specific distinction or reverence. In that case, I'd say I'd like to see men have respect for all women at least, but definitely hold their wives/girlfriends/partners/family with a special distinction. I think if that was sincerely instilled in boys from a young age, not just out of duty or expectation, it would alter their actions towards the opposite sex.

I hope that made more sense.


I totally agree with this. Honour goes both ways, as I honour my husband. Irvine, what you describe sounds more like worship. It might just be the way I am seeing it though. About the equality thing...you may see women as equals, but not all men do.
 
you may see women as equals, but not all men do.



oh, i agree. and the paternalism espoused in the previous article as well as in that Jon Mayer song, and the idea that we need to raise our boys to "serve" and "shower [their wives] with praise" hardly helps with seeing women as equals, or, better, people.

for me, "honor" has connotations that i find a little bit ... archaic. but that could just be my own perception and people can see that in a different way.
 
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