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Old 06-28-2012, 08:44 AM   #141
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Sooooo about that smoking thing...
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:45 AM   #142
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with all due respect, i found there was a massive leap between high-school level writing/analysis and what was expected of me at university/postgrad level - worlds apart in my experience
I can't say anything about postgrad, but as someone who did independent study from college courses in high school (which enabled me to jump right into the advanced classes in college), I didn't find college to be a leap at all in terms of writing/analysis. High school was too easy for me, and college turned out to be breezy as well. I loved the classes that actually challenged me because they were few and far in between.

The hardest thing about college for me was dealing with how bored I got with classes. I never felt challenged enough. To poke some fun into this though, there's a joke among software engineers that they're all really bad at writing/spelling/analyzing words and constantly have miscommunication problems because of it. The degrees focus so heavily on math that it leaves the important stuff like that out. Pat got lucky and his program was a little more comprehensive than most.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:47 AM   #143
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In the end, what people should focus in is to earn money effectively, whether with college or not.
I don't think that should be the focus of one's life.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:48 AM   #144
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Sooooo about that smoking thing...
I never see anyone smoke anymore. Sometimes I wonder if anything would change if it was made illegal. It seems like a lot less people are smoking now than they used to. Maybe this is a beam of light or silver lining about society getting smarter about their health or something. That would be awesome.


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I don't think that should be the focus of one's life.
But with money you can buy happiness!
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:49 AM   #145
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I can't say anything about postgrad, but as someone who did independent study from college courses in high school (which enabled me to jump right into the advanced classes in college), I didn't find college to be a leap at all in terms of writing/analysis. High school was too easy for me, and college turned out to be breezy as well. I loved the classes that actually challenged me because they were few and far in between.

The hardest thing about college for me was dealing with how bored I got with classes. I never felt challenged enough. To poke some fun into this though, there's a joke among software engineers that they're all really bad at writing/spelling/analyzing words and constantly have miscommunication problems because of it. The degrees focus so heavily on math that it leaves the important stuff like that out. Pat got lucky and his program was a little more comprehensive than most.
who is Pat?
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:52 AM   #146
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Fiance, sorry.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:11 AM   #147
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with all due respect, i found there was a massive leap between high-school level writing/analysis and what was expected of me at university/postgrad level - worlds apart in my experience
I was just going to say the same thing.

Frankly I think anyone who thinks that they learned the same things in high school as they did at the university level must have gone to an incredibly shitty university.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:39 AM   #148
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If anybody put their high school experiences on their resume I wouldn't hire them. It would tell me that they haven t yet gotten the work and life experience they need and are deeply insecure and in need of constant validation and affirmation. Which I have no time for.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:40 AM   #149
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Also, smoking is gross. Smoke breath makes me want to pule.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:49 AM   #150
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You are aware that I'm discussing a very specific type of degree and not an entire type of college, right? I think at some colleges they call it "Generalist/(side focus)". The requirements for this degree are... really light. There are very few, if any, advanced courses and it's mostly made up of a bunch of intro and maybe level two courses. I'm serious. The required course list reads like a high school curriculum with a few more electives.

Except it's impossible to know all of my accomplishments when I only list a select few examples. A lot of my high school experiences are things people only got to do in college and are bragged about on resumes as part of the "college experience".
My university doesn't have a General Studies major, so I can't comment on that in particular. I would still caution you not to make gross generalizations about majors. I will agree that if someone doesn't know what they want to study, a gap year or two can be very helpful. I also don't believe college isn't for everyone. There are of course kids in college that aren't seeking knowledge. However, I really do think, someone like you would thrive in the right college environment.

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The best thing college taught me was how to work under pressure. The vast majority of the time, this was self-imposed, and learning what the consequences are for laziness (as well as the limitations of your mental fortitude) is invaluable. You learn to work without sleep, put aside your own wants to get shit done, and when you succeed, it feels great. I've been an extremely motivated student because I'm a perfectionist with low self esteem, but we all have our limitations, and learning to prioritize based on those is essential to getting anywhere in life. Otherwise, you'll get burned out or drift.

Agreed that college can be a waste, but so can an entire lifespan if you accomplish nothing with it.
I will agree with this. I didn't study in high school, as I didn't really have to. College was where I learned my time management skills. I use those daily.

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You don't? Then why were you bringing my character into this discussion in the first place? Was it to prove that I thought I knew everything, or that I was arrogant? Look, I'm genuinely sorry if anything I said came off as offensive to you, because expressing my thoughts through words isn't exactly my strong suit (I consider these debates to be practice for me so I can improve) and I know that. However, bringing who I am as a person into this by bringing up something unrelated that I said and trying to twist it to mean something it doesn't... that just seems mean to me. If you wanted to be nice you could have just never said anything in the first place.
I think that statement just came across as a bit arrogant. I don't think you are arrogant. I try not to compare my intelligence to my friends, but yeah I own being a

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But here's the problem with that. A, B and C are all things you are supposed to have a firm grasp of at the end of high school based on our standard of education. I didn't even go to a very good school and I remember all three of those things being drilled in to me.

And yeah, I'm pretty smart. I'm sorry if my being aware of that while also being acutely aware of my flaws makes me arrogant or amusing to you. Did you know that intelligence isn't everything? You can be the smartest person in the world but still not know the first thing about life. I'm still figuring all that out. But at least I know I'm book smart and can think for myself. It helps me along this journey, learning about life and the people in it.
I have to disagree with the first statement. Out of high school, yes I could write a mean five paragraph essay, but my writing style and grammar improved in college. My Freshman writing classes kicked my ass. I also believe that the additional 4 years of reading really expanded my frame of reference. Now, to be fair I was in an honors program at a top tier university, but I believe you can find engaging and enlightening classes at any college/university. It may just require a bit more searching.

Lastly, you should be proud of being intelligent. And you are most certainly correct that there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom. I think your presence on this sub forum is most welcome. I love people who can debate well.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:43 AM   #151
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I used to TA a required class designed to assess the skills of the incoming class and set the expectation for college level writing and research. I can say that for the majority, how they were writing and citing sources (and what sources they thought were appropriate) demonstrated a big gap between what they were demonstrating they learned in high school and what we expected in college. The students didn't write full papers for me, but practiced writing abstracts, demonstrated various types of citation (mostly MLA and APA), learned how to actually use the library and how to obtain materials from other libraries via ILL, how to access and use research databases, etc. This was a required 100-level 2 credit course (once a week lecture and once a week option lab staffed by me where they could ask for help) and all the students assumed it was an easy A. I'm not even a Nazi grader but very few of my students got As. Many could not write a formulaic 5-paragraph short essay with a topic sentence or thought wikipedia was an appropriate source. One of my best students was a boy from Sudan (one of the Lost Boys). He spent a lot of time in the optional lab because the language barrier prevented him from picking up the material during the lecture. He certainly never grew up with the technology and probably didn't even go to high school but because he actually applied himself during college he ended up doing fine, it just took a little longer.

Of course this is just a general observation and doesn't take into account the quality of the high school education and the standards of the college. The college has a high-90s% acceptance rate (because we need the money and enrollment has declined) but also a high drop out and transfer rate. This is not a small community college; the academic standards are high and even going to the best high school doesn't mean one can coast. I also noticed that my smartest friends often did the poorest in college because they couldn't keep up with the volume of work even though the material might have been beneath them.
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Old 06-28-2012, 12:32 PM   #152
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I went to college for several reasons, but one is specifically so that if LadyFreckles and I are up for a job, I will get if.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:20 PM   #153
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Of course this is just a general observation and doesn't take into account the quality of the high school education and the standards of the college. The college has a high-90s% acceptance rate (because we need the money and enrollment has declined) but also a high drop out and transfer rate. This is not a small community college; the academic standards are high and even going to the best high school doesn't mean one can coast. I also noticed that my smartest friends often did the poorest in college because they couldn't keep up with the volume of work even though the material might have been beneath them.
Yeah, my point isn't necessarily that you can't be challenged in college. It was that it really depends on the school you go to and there are a lot of bad/poor programs out there that people don't realize. That's why I don't think "well at least they went to college!" should be the be all end all for hiring somebody.

I had an issue with the work load. It wasn't that I had too much work, but I'd often question the point of that work. People learn in different ways. I don't think it's always "smarter" people that struggle with this but some people don't function well in a typical schooling environment. My friend worded it as "suffering through the system". People try to look down on the ones who suffer through college or education systems and think they're just less capable but I think they just need a different kind of learning. It doesn't really have anything to do with their work ethic.

During my stint in public high school the teacher would give us pages upon pages of math problems every night--like the 100 multiplication tables in elementary school but more--and say the point of it was to help us memorize everything. I never did it and my grades suffered for that (60% of grade was homework). That's just not how I learn. I can't do 100 math problems to learn math and "instill it in my brain". The teacher at the private school had a different approach, spending time getting us to understand the equations and really breaking it down so we could explain WHY a formula would be carried out a certain way rather than just doing it. That was much more beneficial to me.

In college I had some teachers like my private school teachers, and some like the high school ones. They'd give hours of meaningless work after every class that I just had to grit my teeth and do. It didn't really teach me work ethic because I have no problem doing something mundane if I'm paid to do it (and for work I've had to do this many times)--but when I'm paying someone for an education and they force me to do really repetitive projects/worksheets I start getting irritated. I didn't pay several grand per class just for that kind of experience.


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My university doesn't have a General Studies major, so I can't comment on that in particular. I would still caution you not to make gross generalizations about majors. I will agree that if someone doesn't know what they want to study, a gap year or two can be very helpful. I also don't believe college isn't for everyone. There are of course kids in college that aren't seeking knowledge. However, I really do think, someone like you would thrive in the right college environment.
Oh I definitely would. I made the distinction that the school I was going to was not the right school for me and that I'd go back to college when I had more freedom to go to a school of my choosing with a program I found that I flourished in. I think it's usually the community colleges that have the general studies major, but a I've seen a couple of regular colleges with them as well. The private college I went to did not have it as a major.

I had to go on medical leave at my college and stop classes in the middle of a semester, and when I went to come back the college was giving me a lot of problems and trying to make me jump through hoops. That in the end is what made my decision to "drop out" for the time being for me (I didn't want to try transferring to another school).

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I will agree with this. I didn't study in high school, as I didn't really have to. College was where I learned my time management skills. I use those daily.
My hardest college course was a philosophy class. I think that was the one course that really taught me something. I had a brilliant professor (at a community college, no less) who was able to spend an entire lecture teaching us something unbiased, and then at the end he'd surprise us and turn everything around by pointing out the flaws in that philosophy. That was a class that required a seventy page project handed in at the end of the semester. You were required to write detailed notes about each philosophy and then show that you have an understanding of that philosophy by applying it to something in the modern world in a two page essay.

I aced it but I spent more time on that class than any of my other classes that semester. And that was a class I was just taking for fun and not for what I thought my major was.

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I think that statement just came across as a bit arrogant. I don't think you are arrogant. I try not to compare my intelligence to my friends, but yeah I own being a
I think part of it comes from the fact that I came from a very backwards town and still have friends from there. The friends I've made from school and outside of town are usually the more intelligent ones. The reason I've even taken up notice is when discussing current issues and medical things and hearing the things some of my friends have said about that stuff.

There are some people who just don't like to think about things like politics, philosophy, literature etc and that's fine. I like those people because I find they tone me down and give me a mental break. We talk about things like shows, cars, fashion, etc. But when it comes to the real subjects, that's where the differences are. I have some very superstitious friends and I find them to be a bit silly, but I usually just ignore it unless they ask me for my opinion. In my hometown, which was kind of a country/small town, people just think differently. Coming to terms with that was really hard for me.


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I have to disagree with the first statement. Out of high school, yes I could write a mean five paragraph essay, but my writing style and grammar improved in college. My Freshman writing classes kicked my ass. I also believe that the additional 4 years of reading really expanded my frame of reference. Now, to be fair I was in an honors program at a top tier university, but I believe you can find engaging and enlightening classes at any college/university. It may just require a bit more searching.
I love reading. When I was in high school I took English Composition 101, and that was the one class I think that challenged my grammar. I liked to write in 2nd person and the course I was taking emphasized banning that entirely. It's not just a good university, it's also about having a good program within that university. There are some "average" universities that have stellar programs within them (my friend's college wasn't really great for the other subjects, but their literature program was incredible).


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Lastly, you should be proud of being intelligent. And you are most certainly correct that there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom. I think your presence on this sub forum is most welcome. I love people who can debate well.
Thanks. I hope I can learn a lot more here.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:40 PM   #154
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(at a community college, no less)
Wait... are you making all of these generalizations about college from your experience at a community college?
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:15 PM   #155
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As I've said multiple times in the past, I went to both a private college and a community college. At the same time. I was planning to knock out the rest of my prerequisites at the community college for cheaper while taking more interest-specific courses at the private one. But I ended up moving cross country and transferring to college here (which I hated), so that plan didn't fully work out.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:32 PM   #156
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Forgive me if I'm summarizing a bit too much, but it seems to me like you have responded to being painted with broad strokes by painting others with broad strokes?

I understand the frustration that you feel, the idea that you are being undervalued because you did not graduate from a university, that you could do these things without making such a large investment into something you don't find worthwhile or enjoyable. But your criticism of people who go and get degrees in liberal arts because they don't know what they want to do rings a bit hollow, because you know what? They are more job-eligible than you are. You want to hold it against employers, but one young bright woman (I have no reason to question your description of your own credentials, so I'll assume you are as intelligent as you say you are, even if this conversation hasn't shown you at your best since you are clearly a bit defensive of your own position and a bit bitter, I think it is fair to say) isn't going to change the system around. It's not going to be fair. They go through dozens, even hundreds of applications for various positions at these companies. You are a number in a stack. Your résumé needs to stick out in a positive way. More than likely, if you lack a bachelor's degree, it's going to stick out in a negative way.

I have read many of your posts in this thread (not all of them, I have been at work most of today). At one point, you complained about the work that you were doing in the classroom, saying that you "didn't see the point." While I know you later stated that you were fine with busy work "as long as you were getting paid," you still need to understand that nearly everything you do in life is going to come with work you find pointless, or at least unnecessary. That includes your education. Not every teacher is going to change your life or challenge you to think in new ways. It comes with a territory: namely, being more prepared for the job market.

I graduate in a year. I have plunked down nearly a hundred thousand dollars at a public university to get a degree. And, without trying to sound harsh, I think it would be absurd for a future employer to hire someone without a degree over me. And most employers think that way as well.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:36 PM   #157
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I am not going to hire you because of all your admitted alcohol abuse and pot consumption.

also, I checked your fb.






just kidding



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Old 06-28-2012, 04:49 PM   #158
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I am not going to hire you because of all your admitted alcohol abuse and pot consumption.

also, I checked your fb.






just kidding



At the risk of seeming like a fun-killer by not playing along, it should be noted that I tried marijuana only a few times years ago when I started college, and simply did not like it. I have no problems with it and think it should be legalized, but I don't find it fun and haven't had it in years.

Now the drinking I cannot defend. I thought that turning 21 would possibly make me less inclined to binge drink, but I have only become a heavier drinker now that the destinations to do so are endless. Fuck, it's a costly habit.

At least I don't smoke cigarettes.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:58 PM   #159
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Forgive me if I'm summarizing a bit too much, but it seems to me like you have responded to being painted with broad strokes by painting others with broad strokes?
This would be accurate.

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I understand the frustration that you feel, the idea that you are being undervalued because you did not graduate from a university, that you could do these things without making such a large investment into something you don't find worthwhile or enjoyable. But your criticism of people who go and get degrees in liberal arts because they don't know what they want to do rings a bit hollow, because you know what? They are more job-eligible than you are.
For some reason in my earlier posts I kept using a plural when I meant a singular (possibly because my cc had multiple variations of the "general studies" degree). However, a liberal arts: general studies degree is not the same as another college degree. It just isn't. It's high school 2.0 if you look at the curriculum. Now, communications and literature majors are fine, as are the other lib arts variations, but to say that a degree that reads like a high school curriculum makes someone better qualified for a job is ridiculous.


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You want to hold it against employers, but one young bright woman isn't going to change the system around. It's not going to be fair. They go through dozens, even hundreds of applications for various positions at these companies. You are a number in a stack. Your résumé needs to stick out in a positive way. More than likely, if you lack a bachelor's degree, it's going to stick out in a negative way.
That is the reason I try to raise awareness. If people just accept that this is "the way things are" nothing is ever going to change. I got lucky enough to get my job, but not before I spent a long time being rejected for mundane jobs. I can accept that a manager, or even a receptionist might need either experience or college experience, but part-time sales positions should not, nor should jobs in the helpdesk field (especially when the applicant has hands on experience like myself). Not only that, but people who worked hard in college and are thousands upon thousands of dollars in debt (sometimes hundreds of thousands) are now just barely meeting the requirements to flip burgers. Something just isn't right in the job world and the education world right now and as long as people ignore it it will just get worse.

No social revolution ever got started because people just sat around thinking "it is what it is".

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At one point, you complained about the work that you were doing in the classroom, saying that you "didn't see the point." While I know you later stated that you were fine with busy work "as long as you were getting paid," you still need to understand that nearly everything you do in life is going to come with work you find pointless, or at least unnecessary. That includes your education. Not every teacher is going to change your life or challenge you to think in new ways. It comes with a territory: namely, being more prepared for the job market.
I stated that within the same post. I have never had an issue doing mundane tasks at work. But if I'm paying out the caboose for an "education" I don't want to see poorly designed homework. I don't think that's unrealistic of me or too much to ask for when the average college is $20,000 a year now. I could take the $80,000+ spent on college and make a down payment on a house, buy a fancy mercedes, invest in a business startup, invest in stocks, start a family, travel the world, etc. If I've decided to put that towards education, IMO it should actually challenge me. I expect that kind of stuff from a cheap community college, but when I started seeing it at what's considered to be a "good" private school, that was a slap in the face.

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I graduate in a year. I have plunked down nearly a hundred thousand dollars at a public university to get a degree. And, without trying to sound harsh, I think it would be absurd for a future employer to hire someone without a degree over me. And most employers think that way as well.
Depends on the field. If my fiance (software engineer) was turned down for someone without a degree it would be absolutely absurd. But if it was an entry level minimum wage position, then no. People need those jobs. And people who paid that kind of money for schooling deserve a lot better.
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:15 PM   #160
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For some reason in my earlier posts I kept using a plural when I meant a singular (possibly because my cc had multiple variations of the "general studies" degree). However, a liberal arts: general studies degree is not the same as another college degree. It just isn't. It's high school 2.0 if you look at the curriculum. Now, communications and literature majors are fine, as are the other lib arts variations, but to say that a degree that reads like a high school curriculum makes someone better qualified for a job is ridiculous.
I know that, you have made it abundantly clear. What I am saying: if you are going up against someone with the same amount of experience PLUS a liberal arts degree, that person should probably get that job unless you are a way better interview. They are more qualified. Period. It may not have the same weight as a degree in a more specified field, but it's still a hell of a lot better than your highest degree being your high school diploma.

And honestly? That's the way it should be.
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That is the reason I try to raise awareness. If people just accept that this is "the way things are" nothing is ever going to change. I got lucky enough to get my job, but not before I spent a long time being rejected for mundane jobs. I can accept that a manager, or even a receptionist might need either experience or college experience, but part-time sales positions should not, nor should jobs in the helpdesk field (especially when the applicant has hands on experience like myself). Not only that, but people who worked hard in college and are thousands upon thousands of dollars in debt (sometimes hundreds of thousands) are now just barely meeting the requirements to flip burgers. Something just isn't right in the job world and the education world right now and as long as people ignore it it will just get worse.

No social revolution ever got started because people just sat around thinking "it is what it is".
You're really selling yourself short then. Few employers will have the time to care that you are an idealogue who objects to the concept of higher education as we know it in this country. They're just going to hire the more qualified person.

And a social revolution? There aren't enough people objecting to college to call it that. The only social revolution this country needs (s far as higher education is concerned) is to lower the costs of college, which is a far cry from what you are suggesting. I'd be all on board for that, considering I go to the most expensive public university in history.
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I stated that within the same post. I have never had an issue doing mundane tasks at work. But if I'm paying out the caboose for an "education" I don't want to see poorly designed homework. I don't think that's unrealistic of me or too much to ask for when the average college is $20,000 a year now. I could take the $80,000+ spent on college and make a down payment on a house, buy a fancy mercedes, invest in a business startup, invest in stocks, start a family, travel the world, etc. If I've decided to put that towards education, IMO it should actually challenge me. I expect that kind of stuff from a cheap community college, but when I started seeing it at what's considered to be a "good" private school, that was a slap in the face.
The idea that one or two bad teachers would turn you off from the experience entirely is kind of ridiculous. They can't all be winners. You seem to be a little too much of an idealist on this issue. More realism would help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladyfreckles View Post
Depends on the field. If my fiance was turned down for someone without a degree it would be absolutely absurd. But if it was an entry level minimum wage position, then no. People need those jobs. And people who paid that kind of money for schooling deserve a lot better.
Deserve has nothing to do with it.

They're not going to turn someone down for being overqualified. They're going to hire them.
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