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Old 06-28-2012, 01:00 AM   #121
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The best thing college taught me was how to work under pressure. The vast majority of the time, this was self-imposed, and learning what the consequences are for laziness (as well as the limitations of your mental fortitude) is invaluable. You learn to work without sleep, put aside your own wants to get shit done, and when you succeed, it feels great. I've been an extremely motivated student because I'm a perfectionist with low self esteem, but we all have our limitations, and learning to prioritize based on those is essential to getting anywhere in life. Otherwise, you'll get burned out or drift.

Agreed that college can be a waste, but so can an entire lifespan if you accomplish nothing with it.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:02 AM   #122
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like old man strength, life experience should not be underestimated
I felt so old typing out that reply and yet I distinctly remember having such "pert opinions for someone so young" to borrow a phrase from Jane Austen. I also remember rolling my eyes when my parents would tell me I would think differently when I was older. I may need to call my Mom to apologize.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:11 AM   #123
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Except it's impossible to know all of my accomplishments when I only list a select few examples. A lot of my high school experiences are things people only got to do in college and are bragged about on resumes as part of the "college experience".
I meant more in the wording. I know it sounds like arguing semantics, but to me "founding a technology club" comes off much differently than "starting a technology club"
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:14 AM   #124
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I meant more in the wording. I know it sounds like arguing semantics, but to me "founding a technology club" comes off much differently than "starting a technology club"
Yeah, I get that. Universities are founded; lemonade stands are started.

The only professional aspect of my professional writing degree came from a business ethics and decorum class I took in my sophomore year. Taught me how to write like I matter even though I don't really.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:19 AM   #125
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I meant more in the wording. I know it sounds like arguing semantics, but to me "founding a technology club" comes off much differently than "starting a technology club"
You should know that on forums I use informal prose. It makes it a lot easier to differentiate and helps to put me in a different mindset when I'm actually working/being professional. So mistakes are often made etc.

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The best thing college taught me was how to work under pressure. The vast majority of the time, this was self-imposed, and learning what the consequences are for laziness (as well as the limitations of your mental fortitude) are invaluable. You learn to work without sleep, put aside your own wants to get shit done, and when you succeed, it feels great. I've been an extremely motivated student because I'm a perfectionist with low self esteem, but we all have our limitations.

Agreed that college can be a waste, but so can an entire lifespan if you accomplish nothing with it.
I love that last part of your post.

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I felt so old typing out that reply and yet I distinctly remember having such "pert opinions for someone so young" to borrow a phrase from Jane Austen. I also remember rolling my eyes when my parents would tell me I would think differently when I was older. I may need to call my Mom to apologize.
I never rolled my eyes when my parents told me I would think differently, it was when they said I'd come to their conclusions. Growing up a lot of the adults in my life were ignorant/misinformed about many of their beliefs and ideas. I didn't realize how much so this was until about two years ago. My friend's mom has acted as a huge mentor for me and I'm very grateful for it, I'm not sure what I'd do if I hadn't had her to look up to.

I'll just say that I came from an extremely backwards town. I don't want to go into too many details about that.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:25 AM   #126
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You should know that on forums I use informal prose. It makes it a lot easier to differentiate and helps to put me in a different mindset when I'm actually working/being professional. So mistakes are often made etc.

I'm about to go sleepy, so I don't want to go back and look, but what I meant was you were being too formal there (ie, you used 'founded') and it came off as if you were making it into a bigger accomplishment than it actually is. Padding your young resume, as it were (That sounds incredibly dickish, so I apologize in advance. It isn't meant to be)
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:34 AM   #127
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I'm about to go sleepy, so I don't want to go back and look, but what I meant was you were being too formal there (ie, you used 'founded') and it came off as if you were making it into a bigger accomplishment than it actually is. Padding your young resume, as it were (That sounds incredibly dickish, so I apologize in advance. It isn't meant to be)
Naw, I was honestly just typing out what I was thinking and the way I worded it in my head was like that. I'm informal and casual about these posts. "Founded" means to establish something which is precisely what I did. I don't think my brain has ever used "started" in that context before. In my high school "founded" is actually the word they used. The technology club had to go through a lot of organization to even be approved. I'm not sure how other high schools work, but in mine it was extremely difficult to just "start up" a club. You had to have detailed plans of what the club would be doing, get approval from several teachers and the principle, pay a fee ($150), and already have a list of people who would be willing to participate. Also, to found a club you have to have a minimum GPA and a recommendation from a teacher that you're actually qualified to run that sort of club.

I heard that the reason it was so strict was because a lot of kids were making clubs just to smoke on campus or do/exchange drugs or hang out with people and loiter around the school because that's what the kids in my town were like.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:07 AM   #128
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No I don't think smoking should be illegal. As for food, I don't know about that. I think we could make better laws regulating how fast food is made so it's sustainable. This might drive up the price a bit but it solves the problem more directly. I definitely think we need to be making healthy foods more readily available/affordable.

As for this long collegiate discussion... I have a degree and it's very useful in my field but I completely agree on the point that a degree doesn't make a person any more/less professional than one without. Jive Turkey, I think the accomplishments seem different because coming from BA or BS program listing high school accomplishments sounds irrelevant. It's too far back to really matter anymore. But when you're 20 it is a good idea to put on your resume especially if you don't have the college experience yet. I think ladyfreckles was just trying to use those as examples of how she can learn those skills (professionalism, organization, time management, critical thinking, etc) via other methods than just college.

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You are aware that I'm discussing a very specific type of degree and not an entire type of college, right? I think at some colleges they call it "Generalist/(side focus)".
I think that clarifies a number of the grumblings haha, you don't mean "liberal arts degrees" of which there are many but rather one particular general studies degree. That might be why people misunderstood you.
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:59 AM   #129
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The best thing college taught me was how to work under pressure.
me too! and that has been incredibly valuable for my job - every day, with my work deadlines, i feel like i'm preparing for my finals! seriously! LOL

(i love it though - i thrive under pressure, love to be busy and wouldn't have it any other way)
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:07 AM   #130
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You have me all figured out, don't you?
to be fair... you did say in an earlier post that you were much more intelligent than all your friends... and that kind of made me laugh out loud

i mean, seriously, how does one judge that kind of thing? how can you possibly arrive at such a conclusion? there is NO WAY i could or would ever attempt to make that kind of comparison with my friends, really!

for instance, academically and professionally, i do ok, but i sure as hell can be as thick as two short planks in MANY other aspects of life!
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:33 AM   #131
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to be fair... you did say in an earlier post that you were much more intelligent than all your friends... and that kind of made me laugh out loud

i mean, seriously, how does one judge that kind of thing? how can you possibly arrive at such a conclusion? there is NO WAY i could or would ever attempt to make that kind of comparison with my friends, really!

for instance, academically and professionally, i do ok, but i sure as hell can be as thick as two short planks in MANY other aspects of life!
I am more intelligent/well versed than a lot of my friends, but I NEVER said all of them. The reason is not because I'm better than them, either. As I believe I mentioned in the post you're referring to, my friends don't pursue academics/knowledge, i.e. they are willfully ignorant. Many of them flat out don't care about the things they don't know while I can't bear not knowing/understanding things. I have no doubt they could be smart if they cared enough to try, but alas, most don't want to. The important thing to realize is that I consider intelligence to be the ability to gain knowledge, not someone who just knows a lot of stuff. There are some people in this world who are fantastic, kind hearted individuals who I would easily take a bullet for, but they don't care about learning. They care about preserving their beliefs, even if it means going right in the face of science.

I suppose I'm different from you. I'm become friends with a person because I believe they are a good person with a good heart, and because our personalities mesh well. I don't care about personal flaws and I don't delude myself about said flaws either. I've got my own flaws, too, and I'm sure my friends are well aware of these flaws and put up with them. I suppose one of these flaws could be the habit of being overly blunt. But ultimately I don't care if a friend of mine is dumb or worships a golden gorilla. I am friends with people who are diagnosed with mental retardation. It doesn't phase me in the least. I am also friends with scientists who are way more knowledgable than I could ever hope to be. It balances things out when they make me realize how stupid I really am in the grand scheme of things.

How are they less intelligent, you asked? How did I come to that conclusion? The friends I consider to be equal/better than me in intelligence adapt their beliefs based on evidence, whereas the friends I deem less intelligent will refuse to accept knowledge when it is given to them and deny something even when the evidence is right there in front of them because continuing to believe what they've believed their entire lives is more convenient for them than listening to the truth. This isn't about opinion stuff either, it has to do with medical things, health, science, etc. Intelligence is not knowing more than another person, it's being able to adapt. For example, there's an entire universe of things I am completely 100% ignorant about. I accept that I don't know things and let the smarter people deal with them, but if something is being explained to me I am willing to learn about it to the best of my abilities. Some people are either unwilling or unable. You are right that some people are well versed in some subjects and not so well versed in others. That doesn't make you unintelligent. For example, I know jack squat about astrophysics and dating.

Then of course there's the friends of mine I have that are really smart. One of my friends is a theoretical physicist and he makes me feel like a toddler when it comes to smarts. I know plenty of programmers and engineers too who are quite intelligent. People involved in journalism that I believe to be geniuses. But yes, I have a lot of friends who are less/more intelligent/well versed than me, and you do too. Everyone does.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:20 AM   #132
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you said:

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This is a terrible thing to say but I am more intelligent and knowledgable than many of my friends who have Bachelor's degrees and even PhDs/masters.
so you're saying those friends are the ones who "don't pursue academics/knowledge, i.e. they are willfully ignorant."?

oh dear
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:40 AM   #133
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so you're saying those friends are the ones who "don't pursue academics/knowledge, i.e. they are willfully ignorant."?

oh dear
Ah, and that is where you make the mistake. Academics/knowledge and university are not the same thing. Someone may go to university to pursue knowledge, but many just go through the motions and "get it done" just to get a degree. Yes, I have friends that went through four year of schooling and have very, very little to show for it. I have a friend with a PhD in literature with worse grammar than me. And then I have other friends who did pursue knowledge in school, and those people either surpass me or are at the very least, equals.

And before anyone gets technical about the definition of academics, it seems to vary by dictionary (just double checked). Education is the definition in my dictionary (in the online one it says "university"). Education != college. College is sometimes education but education is not always college.

My point was that going to college and getting a degree doesn't make you smarter or more well versed about the world than someone who does not. The exceptions are usually the science fields or fields involving history and culture.

I must have mixed up the posts you were talking about. In one post where I mentioned this I was discussing friends that don't believe in science and endanger their own health. In another, the one you quoted, I was discussing how getting a degree doesn't automatically mean you know more than someone without a degree. I have some friends that never wanted to learn, and knowledge just went in one ear and out the other for them. People with english degrees that have horrible grammar, or people with business degrees that no longer remember anything about business. It happens. I'm sure everyone's worked with a person like this at least once, and I know a few of them. But then there are the people who did want to learn, but the school system was subpar. With those people they really did try to learn, but the school system failed them. The school system fails a lot of people too.

The most significant piece in this is not me going "oh I'm smarter than college grads". If you think about it and really evaluate it, what I'm saying is that if I, a mere college drop-out with mediocre grammar and spelling skills, know more about someone's field of study than they do after they graduate, something is wrong. I'm not being prideful, I'm being extremely concerned about the nature of education in this country.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:06 AM   #134
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i won't post a proper reply to this - i don't want to be mean...
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:13 AM   #135
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i won't post a proper reply to this - i don't want to be mean...
You don't? Then why were you bringing my character into this discussion in the first place? Was it to prove that I thought I knew everything, or that I was arrogant? Look, I'm genuinely sorry if anything I said came off as offensive to you, because expressing my thoughts through words isn't exactly my strong suit (I consider these debates to be practice for me so I can improve) and I know that. However, bringing who I am as a person into this by bringing up something unrelated that I said and trying to twist it to mean something it doesn't... that just seems mean to me. If you wanted to be nice you could have just never said anything in the first place.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:15 AM   #136
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What about the person who has been doing other work and spent the same amount of time maturing? If they're the same age, "maturity" is not a logical way to rule them out. Those people that you are turning down might just be incredibly talented, mature, professional people that you're ruling out and judging because they don't have a degree.

Let's say I have to hire someone as a legal assistant or secretary. I have 10 choices, 6 with bachelor's degrees, 4 without. It is just as logical here to assume the people without degrees have had a much harder time finding work and will appreciate the job a lot more. Some people with BAs feel as though they're above doing that kind of work, so they'll slack off. People without BAs tend to know where they stand more often.
You're mistaking maturity for age. I don't try to figure out how old an applicant is. What I am interested in is their life experience. If I have someone who did a 4 year undergrad and someone who spent 4 years being a secretary during that time, then obviously the latter is a better candidate because her experience is directly related. But my post clearly said, all things being equal. If one has a BA and the other one spent 4 years working at a nail salon, as a bank teller and at Starbucks, I'm still going to probably look at the BA person more because the skills the other individual has are largely irrelevant to what they'd be doing as a legal assistant. What I care about are: attention to detail (most important), ability to draft simple documents (ie. literacy), think critically and problem solve themselves (they're my assistant, I'm not there to walk them through every step of every task and some tasks may be slightly above their pay grade) professionalism when communicating with clients and other lawyers internally, organizational skills, and some comfort with math/basic accounting because they'll have to work on bills, pre-bills, invoices and so on (yes, it's mostly done by software, but stupid errors are caught better by someone who can add and spot things). People with a BA, I at least know that a) they can read and analyze what they've read, b) work independently on small research tasks, and c) write/draft documents. We'll have to work to mold them into being specifically helpful to our group/organization and of course there is a learning curve, but the fact that I know that they have those basic skills means that it's a great starting point.

Doesn't mean that people without BAs are never hired, I'm just saying that there is a reason why those with BAs have a leg up in the hiring process. And frankly, you'd find this type of view industry-wide and across many other industries as well.

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I would consider the ones without the BAs first, looking into their experience, what they did in high school (were they involved in clubs? did they get good grades?), etc.

It is not always more logical to just grab the person with the degree.

I can tell you that over the number of years when I've been involved in hiring legal assistants (or clerks or paralegals), never, and I mean [/i]never[/i] did I, any other lawyer, or any HR person give a hoot about what these people did in high school. Usually that would be on the bottom of their second page of their resume and nobody even read it.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:17 AM   #137
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You don't? Then why were you bringing my character into this discussion in the first place? Was it to prove that I thought I knew everything, or that I was arrogant?
i was backing up Irvine

and i'm not "twisting" anything - i just thought it was amusing you would say you considered yourself so clever, that's all... i just find it strange when people say stuff like that about themselves really...
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:29 AM   #138
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You're mistaking maturity for age. I don't try to figure out how old an applicant is. What I am interested in is their life experience. If I have someone who did a 4 year undergrad and someone who spent 4 years being a secretary during that time, then obviously the latter is a better candidate because her experience is directly related. But my post clearly said, all things being equal. If one has a BA and the other one spent 4 years working at a nail salon, as a bank teller and at Starbucks, I'm still going to probably look at the BA person more because the skills the other individual has are largely irrelevant to what they'd be doing as a legal assistant.
Then I misunderstood you and I apologize for that. I thought you meant equal experience didn't matter.

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People with a BA, I at least know that a) they can read and analyze what they've read, b) work independently on small research tasks, and c) write/draft documents. We'll have to work to mold them into being specifically helpful to our group/organization and of course there is a learning curve, but the fact that I know that they have those basic skills means that it's a great starting point.
But here's the problem with that. A, B and C are all things you are supposed to have a firm grasp of at the end of high school based on our standard of education. I didn't even go to a very good school and I remember all three of those things being drilled in to me.

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I can tell you that over the number of years when I've been involved in hiring legal assistants (or clerks or paralegals), never, and I mean [/i]never[/i] did I, any other lawyer, or any HR person give a hoot about what these people did in high school. Usually that would be on the bottom of their second page of their resume and nobody even read it.
On resumes people list what they were doing in college all the time. For me, since I was only in college for two years, I list both college achievements and high school achievements. I list what I believe is relevant to my skills, and if someone doesn't take high school seriously for that, then that is an error on their part. It can be a huge mistake not to look at high school experiences on employee resumes of young folk, though my resume puts an emphasis on my experience in the professional world.

After you have a degree I agree that it's silly to list high school on your resume, but you learn the same skills in high school that you do in college. The level to which you take those skills shows a lot about you. For example, chess is a game of critical thinking and strategy. I was captain of the chess team two years in a row and won regional championships. Leading and organizing an educational club showed time management skills. Retaining high honors while doubling up on classes and working internships, like many people do in college and brag about on their resumes, is also something I did.

I took those skills into the real world and used them to further my freelance career. Without those skills, I would not be able to do what I do right now for a living. But I didn't get those skills in college. My recent job experience consists of doing contract work with clients, reaching out and advertising, answering emails for the boss, building web and gaming servers from the ground up, designing and installing layouts for drupal and movable type, mild programming, getting 80+ hour jobs done in only 1-2 weeks, being on call for to handle server crashes 24/7 (and I do get called at 3am to fix things sometimes), etc. If I'm not professional when dealing with clients, we don't get business, and since this is a contract position, if I don't get business, I don't get paid.

Unfortunately I've had people not take this list of skills (which is only related to one of my jobs, I have freelance skills listed too with references) on my resume and still insist that I needed college.


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i was backing up Irvine

and i'm not "twisting" anything - i just thought it was amusing you would say you considered yourself so clever, that's all... i just find it strange when people say stuff like that about themselves really...
No, how about this. How about I actually have confidence in my abilities after spending years relying on them so I don't go broke? How about, after growing up with no self esteem, I finally get the confidence in my own intelligence that I never believed in for years to acknowledge that "hey, I'm actually smart"? Except when I do that, someone is "amused" that I "think myself so clever". Not only that, but you WERE twisting it. I implied that, if someone with a degree was not as smart as myself (a college dropout I specified, which is self-depreciating), then there was something going wrong with college and it wasn't some infallible thing. I wasn't even trying to brag about myself, I was using my experiences as a tool to prove a point.

Many people seem to mistake confidence with cockiness. We think that if someone says they're smart, or someone says they're strong, or someone says they're good at something, they're just bragging. They're not. I'm sure if we were having this conversation in person and you heard the tone in my voice you would have never once assumed that. Yet, you do.

And yeah, I'm pretty smart. I'm sorry if my being aware of that while also being acutely aware of my flaws makes me arrogant or amusing to you. Did you know that intelligence isn't everything? You can be the smartest person in the world but still not know the first thing about life. I'm still figuring all that out. But at least I know I'm book smart and can think for myself. It helps me along this journey, learning about life and the people in it.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:38 AM   #139
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But here's the problem with that. A, B and C are all things you are supposed to have a firm grasp of at the end of high school based on our standard of education. I didn't even go to a very good school and I remember all three of those things being drilled in to me.
with all due respect, i found there was a massive leap between high-school level writing/analysis and what was expected of me at university/postgrad level - worlds apart in my experience
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:42 AM   #140
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no, how about this. How about i actually have confidence in my abilities after spending years relying on them so i don't go broke? How about, after growing up with no self esteem, i finally get the confidence in my own intelligence that i never believed in for years to acknowledge that "hey, i'm actually smart"? Except when i do that, someone is "amused" that i "think myself so clever". Not only that, but you were twisting it. I implied that, if someone with a degree was not as smart as myself (a college dropout i specified, which is self-depreciating), then there was something going wrong with college and it wasn't some infallible thing. I wasn't even trying to brag about myself, i was using my experiences as a tool to prove a point.

Many people seem to mistake confidence with cockiness. We think that if someone says they're smart, or someone says they're strong, or someone says they're good at something, they're just bragging. They're not. I'm sure if we were having this conversation in person and you heard the tone in my voice you would have never once assumed that. Yet, you do.

And yeah, i'm pretty smart. I'm sorry if my being aware of that while also being acutely aware of my flaws makes me arrogant or amusing to you. Did you know that intelligence isn't everything? You can be the smartest person in the world but still not know the first thing about life. I'm still figuring all that out. But at least i know i'm book smart and can think for myself. It helps me along this journey, learning about life and the people in it.
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