Shooting/Terrorism in Paris

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mama cass said:
police raids in Saint Denis, Paris (near the Stade de France) in the night

3 police officers slightly wounded
2 terrorists killed including a woman wearing a suicide vest
at least 1 terrorist still holed up
3 arrested
schools, colleges, businesses closed
public transport to St Denis suspended


Paris attacks: suspects and 'mastermind' Abdel-Hamid Abu Oud holed up in Saint-Denis raid – live | World news | The Guardian
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Yipes, so these jackasses were still in Paris after everything they've done. Glad the cops are catching them, hope they can get the last fucker as well.
 
PhilsFan said:
No, we understand that. You are getting your point across. Your point just seems extremely reactionary and not all that well thought out.

As was said before: we are in a no-win situation. They have a major persecution complex (as do pretty much all religious fanatics). They believe we need to be destroyed because we are threatening their way of life, and us attacking them is proof. It IS a recruitment tool, no matter what anyone tries to tell you to the contrary. It's the sort of thing that keeps something like ISIS going. If we don't bomb them, they'll continue. If we do bomb them, they'll continue.
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That's fair..:up: it is a damned if you do damned if you don't type of thing, I do see the other side too.
 
Mack_Again said:
I have heard that they're destroying many of mosques and things, thou. and some of them don't even mention God (well that kind of account may not be that credible, but). I don't know what they're really trying to achieve except for just destroying things for very immature reasons with very smudge of religion.
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I mean... Really? You don't understand that there are different sects within Islam? Just like every other religion?

They're destroying mosques and monuments of different sects of Islam, whom they consider even worse than Christians and Jews.

It's not really difficult to understand. Imagine if Lutherans destroyed a bunch of Catholic Churches. They're all Christian, but that doesn't mean they believe in all the same things.
 
Jeannieco said:
We have to be more than a war machine, we have to change the thinking and shift the paradigm of those sad sick souls preoccupied with death and destruction. So the biggest question of all is how the hell do we do that?
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With all due respect (because I agree in general that sticking our noses where they don't belong and indiscriminate bombing will achieve nothing good in the long run) but I think we are far beyond that.

You can't negotiate with those who believe that killing themselves and chopping people's heads off is appropriate in 2015. You cannot "change their souls" or whatever, by and large I mean, maybe you have the odd person still willing to listen to reason but most of these people are beyond hope. Attempting to deal with them like they are rational, democratic, secular actors who could be persuaded into peace is very naive.

And I think that it is perfectly fine to not want to indiscriminately bomb while also recognizing that the only way to deal with SOME of these lunatics is elimination, one way or another.
 
You want to eliminate the people who are too far gone while identifying and changing the minds of those (much younger) people who can still be saved. Which is an impossible task from my point-of-view, but that's the goal.
 
Diemen said:
The thing is, while Daesh* might be a slightly new flavor of terrorist extremism, just bombing the hell out of them and wiping them off the face of the planet is not going to address the fundamental problem, and will, in fact, guarantee the rise of the next branch. There have been interviews done with some of the Daesh fighters, and many of them are NOT actually devout Muslims with a strong fundamental understanding of their faith. They're disillusioned youth who were treated badly under US-backed Al-Maliki in Iraq, and youth who are especially vulnerable to fall under the spell of people who give them a sense of (violent, retributive) purpose and the veneer of being sanctioned by God.

We're not going to end this kind of extreme terrorism until we start doing something real about the "hearts and minds" of every day people in these middle Eastern countries. We simply can't expect a military approach to work unless it is paired with a humanitarian approach that is just as strong if not more so. It's easy as shit to bomb bad guys. It's a lot more difficult to give people hope and access to things that improve their lives in a meaningful way. But that's the only way we stand a chance of eradicating this Islamist extremism. Until that gets addressed it's just going to be whack-a-mole.

*The assholes formely known as ISIS
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:up:
 
In regards to the story that one of the attackers was a Syrian refugee:



In Germany, Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere told reporters in Berlin that a Syrian passport found with one of the Paris attackers with the name Ahmad al Mohammad may have been a false flag intended to make Europeans fearful of refugees. The passport showed registrations in Greece, Serbia and Croatia, which he described as "unusual."

He said the multiple registrations by a person using the passport were "evidence that this was a trail that was intentionally laid, but it can't be ruled out at the moment that this was an IS terrorist who came to France ... via Germany as a refugee.”
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France Searches For Second Fugitive Suspect In Paris Attacks
 
anitram said:
With all due respect (because I agree in general that sticking our noses where they don't belong and indiscriminate bombing will achieve nothing good in the long run) but I think we are far beyond that.

You can't negotiate with those who believe that killing themselves and chopping people's heads off is appropriate in 2015. You cannot "change their souls" or whatever, by and large I mean, maybe you have the odd person still willing to listen to reason but most of these people are beyond hope. Attempting to deal with them like they are rational, democratic, secular actors who could be persuaded into peace is very naive.

And I think that it is perfectly fine to not want to indiscriminately bomb while also recognizing that the only way to deal with SOME of these lunatics is elimination, one way or another.
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Yes, I agree but my point was to get to the hearts and minds of the children before they are brain washed with all this hate and delusion. Breaking the cycle, but how do we do that? That is a mighty big task that will take time and intense dedication of course not to mentions cost. Just like Bono says about poverty. The biggest deterrent to terrorism is getting these kids out of poverty, be it in Africa or Syria and empowering the women in these countries will also help. But in the immediate future my heart hurts for all these sad people all over the world...and feeling at a loss digging for answers. I just revert back to the adage and yes it may be naïve to some, but violence absolutely begets violence. We have to stop at some point. Definition of insanity... ect. ect...
So l listen to this in the meantime... and maybe the revolution will come... Power to the peaceful .... have you all seen this?
 
YBORCITY said:
I think you and BVS are correct-I don't think I'm getting my point across right.... it's my belief that we have been over-cautious and extremely cerebral about our approach to this but in my mind it hasn't worked, they are still bombing and taking out innocent lives. The invasion of Iraq was a massive blunder and I feel we kinda bombed first without thinking of any exit strategies or realized what a huge vacuum and destabilizing force the invasion would cause. With that said, ISIS is a bit different than AQ in the way they pull these things off with seeming impunity. While agreeing with you with the trying better to understand the root-cause of all of this fundamentalism these guys should be punished and not with carpet bombing but with strategic targets and possibly hitting them monetarily and sanctions and the like.
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You're getting your thoughts across just fine. :up:
 
Jeannieco said:
The biggest deterrent to terrorism is getting these kids out of poverty, be it in Africa or Syria and empowering the women in these countries will also help.
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And poverty is a key factor in recruiting new members, according to the ISIS defector interviewed by the Daily Beast. ISIS has money and provides employment and a social safety net/welfare payments in the economically devastated east region of Syria.
 
dieman and Jeannieco
tend to agree with you

SUre bombing has a quick visceral satisfaction but the often killing of other innocents just usually exacerbates the problem

it IS a longer more meticulous haul to change hearts and minds to get informants in the meantime etc :sigh:
 
Courtesy of Elbonita Kozhani, on Facebook:

I am a Muslim and I am a Refugee who came to Canada in 1999.

I've never felt the need to share my story until now because I cannot withhold my opinions any longer. I am so tired of going on Facebook and being disappointed over and over again. I don't ever remember there being an up-roar ever before in regards to accepting refugees to Canada. It is simply what Canada did and continues to do. All of a sudden, it's become very problematic.

Refugees are stereotyped into this "terrorist" category which makes me cringe, every single time. Refugees are running away from these individuals. How does this not make sense to you? The media has truly out-done itself. I have a question for you all. Do you feel uncomfortable when somebody asks about your religion? Catholic? Anglican? Jewish? Etc. I bet you don't and how wonderful that must feel. I wouldn't know. I shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable when people ask me what my religion is and I do. It is not fair.
I've seen comments along the lines of "after what happened in Paris, we should be much more careful in accepting refugees in our country." I than shake my head in disbelief at the lack of open-mindedness and lack of empathy present within people I thought I knew.

I am exhausted of sticking up for my religion or the status I came to Canada as - a refugee. Did it ever cross your mind that if Canada wasn't as wonderful as it is, my family and I could have easily been dead? You have no idea how thankful we are for "your" country saving us. It never skips my mind. Not a single day. I look at myself in the mirror and the person I have become today and the only thoughts that come to my head is "Canada". I am proud of who I have become thanks for this country.

I would like to think it's pure common sense that there are good and bad people in every country and every religion. Islam has become such a hot topic these days and apparently all the bad guys are from this religion. News to me!
I've heard comments along the line of "we need refugees to be properly screened before we accept them in our country" This is fair. I get it. You are scared with all that is going on in the world. But my question to you is, how is that possible? What do we do while we are "getting screened?" Do we simply hope that we don't die in the mean time? Does war stop while we are "getting screened" No it doesn't. We don't have time to be screened. We need YOU to take us in and believe that we really are good people. We need your help so desperately.

For those of you who feel the need to comment "it's our country, why should we change for you" I find this extremely dis-heartening. I wasn't aware that an entire country could belong to "you". We don't want you to change. We just want to feel safe again, where we don't have to sleep with our clothes and shoes in fear of having to escape at 3 in the morning, where we don't have to listen to bombs go off and hope to God it's not near us, where we don't have to pack bags of food in fear of starving, where we don't have to run on never ending fields to escape the fires, where we don't have our house burnt down and all the memories forever gone. I shouldn't have to watch guns held at my family member at the age of 8 or a train being rushed to escape and almost leaving my poor mother behind as she hung on the train for dear life. At 8 years old, I shouldn't have to wonder if the rest of my family is alive or dead. As children, we so desperately want to experience a normal childhood, eat Nutella because it's the best damn thing, we want to sleep in a bed again and not share a tent with 8 other families. We want to go to school and smell the pages of an old book. We want to have a teddy bear we cling on too just like all the other kids. We want to play. We want to feel normal again.

I'll never forget the day in Macedonia when a peace-keeper entered our tent and asked if I wanted a yellow box of chocolate. I was in such awe. I couldn't believe I was eating chocolate! What a dream that was. I remember only having a couple bites each day because I was sure this would be the last time I would ever have chocolate again. How very lucky I am to eat chocolate every single day since!

When we got off the plane and arrived in Canada, I remember there being about 50 people standing in line to greet us with the warmest hugs. I remember thinking - "wow, how can people we don't even know be so very kind and giving?" These are the people I know of Canada. We came here with nothing. No passport or ID, no clothes - nothing. It was Canadians who provided us with a "home", who gave us clothes, towels, food and TOYS! So much TOYS. Boy oh boy were we ever happy. I couldn't forget this day if I even tried.

Thank you Canada for allowing me to experience peace again. Thank you for giving me a home and accepting me as one of your own.

Thank you for allowing me to get an education, for opening my mind, for teaching me to be free of judgement and stereotypes, for allowing me to know my rights as a human and as a woman and for all the people I have met who has forever changed my life. Thank you for allowing me to have a wonderful job that not only pays the bills, but allows me to experience different parts of the world, too.

I am truly the luckiest girl in the world. Thank you Canada for making me into the "best me" I could possibly be.

Please try and open your minds. I beg of you. These are good people who have lost all hope for a bright future. Help them regain that hope again.

Be open to these Syrian refugees who have suffered far too long. Help them feel as free as I do.

Let people if Islam religion feel at peace again and not fear telling you that they are Muslim...

I love Canada so very dearly and the people of this country. Thank you for all that you do.
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So the Mayor of Roanoke took the whole anti refugee stance and went even further. He portrayed the internment of Americans of Japanese decent in a positive light. Seriously.

564cb436dbbed.preview.jpg


David Bowers statement on Syrian refugees - Roanoke Times: Home
 
Pearl said:
Can someone please explain what was this about?






Supposedly, they were booing Greece, Turkey's history long enemy, or the fact that there's never a moment of silence for when Turks are killed in terrorist attacks. Either way, I'm uneasy with this. It seems insensitive.


Turkey football fans boo minute's silence for Paris victims, chant 'Allahu Akbar' - Times of India
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The reporting on this is unnecessary propaganda. It's clickbait due to a currently combustible, anti-Muslim western world environment.

The fact that they're booing can be over many things. It can be that they are booing the culprits. It can be that they are booing extremism (need we forget, Turkey had a *very* similar bombing, recently?). It can be that they are booing a bad group of fans. Someone saying "Allah hu Akbar" doesn't mean they're promoting terrorism, either. We just so easily relate that to "uh oh this guy is about to blow himself up." I don't need to translate it for anyone, but "God is great" is something they say in Muslim-Arab countries. Regularly. Over many things.

Now, I imagine Turkey does have a lot of bad apples in it. But no, I don't suddenly think that all of their soccer fans are jihadi sympathizers.

Note, I'm not necessarily saying this *at you* pearl.
 
According to Turkish people they were apparently chanting support for the victims (this same chant occurred during a moment of silence for the victims of a similar attack in Turkey).
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
The reporting on this is unnecessary propaganda. It's clickbait due to a currently combustible, anti-Muslim western world environment.

The fact that they're booing can be over many things. It can be that they are booing the culprits. It can be that they are booing extremism (need we forget, Turkey had a *very* similar bombing, recently?). It can be that they are booing a bad group of fans. Someone saying "Allah hu Akbar" doesn't mean they're promoting terrorism, either. We just so easily relate that to "uh oh this guy is about to blow himself up." I don't need to translate it for anyone, but "God is great" is something they say in Muslim-Arab countries. Regularly. Over many things.

Now, I imagine Turkey does have a lot of bad apples in it. But no, I don't suddenly think that all of their soccer fans are jihadi sympathizers.

Note, I'm not necessarily saying this *at you* pearl.
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I didn't think they were cheering for terrorism either, and you're right, we in the West associate "Allahu Akbar" with terrorism because so many terrorists say that. So, there's the knee-jerk reaction. But I was confused and didn't know what to think.

I'm glad this was discussed because it helps put things in perspective when cultural differences make things confusing. I could imagine when Muslims in the Middle East have the same reaction when someone says "God Bless America" - since it takes on a whole new meaning over there.
 
trojanchick99 said:
I'd never judge a people based on their sports fans.

But I do judge them based on their elected officials. Rand Paul is a jackass.

[TWEET]667090048588771328[/TWEET]
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No amount of looking like Petyr Baelish will save you in my eyes, now, Rand.
 
trojanchick99 said:
I'd never judge a people based on their sports fans.

But I do judge them based on their elected officials. Rand Paul is a jackass.

[TWEET]667090048588771328[/TWEET]
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So let's just dump whoever gets in on the streets without help so they will love our country even more then? Rather than showing them how different it can be? :happy:
 
PhilsFan said:
According to Turkish people they were apparently chanting support for the victims (this same chant occurred during a moment of silence for the victims of a similar attack in Turkey).
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Was it? Genuinely asking here, otherwise I'm inclined to make the assumption that in many countries, football fanatics lean towards nationalism/reactionary politics - and that these sorts of incidents may in some way mimic the Turkish state's not-so-hidden collusion with ISIS. And in regards to the recent Ankara attacks, given the way the HDP (the party whose rallies have been attacked on numerous occasions) are portrayed by the aforementioned Turkish state, this sort of reaction to that would not have surprised me as well.
 
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