Scientologists aren't any weirder than you are

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Irvine511

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[q]For the Love of Xenu

By Mark Oppenheimer

Scientology, the controversial religion whose adherents include John Travolta, Tom Cruise, and Jenna Elfman, can't seem to stay out of the news. Sometimes the church would rather not have the publicity, as when Germany, which considers Scientology a cult, recently refused to let Tom Cruise shoot scenes for his new movie in government buildings. Other times, Scientologists court the attention—as when the same Mr. Cruise brought his Scientology-influenced anti-psychiatry crusade to the Today show in 2005.

Some Americans may consider Scientology perhaps a cult, maybe a violent sect, and certainly very weird. And, like many, I find the Church of Scientology odd, to say the least. But Scientology is no more bizarre than other religions. And it's the similarities between Scientology and, say, Christianity and Judaism that make us so uncomfortable. We need to hate Scientology, lest we hate ourselves.

[...]

My podcast and article were not meant to attack Scientology. Not every article about a Catholic mentions the church's pederasty scandals or its suborning of fascism under Hitler and Franco. An article about Yom Kippur observance in Hackensack need not ask Jews for their views of illegal West Bank settlements. All religious groups have something to answer for, but religion writing would be quite tedious, not to mention unilluminating, if every article were reduced to the negative charges against some co-religionists.

But when it comes to Scientology, there's a hunger for the negative. I suspect that's because Scientology evinces an acute case of what Freud called the narcissism of small differences: We're made most uncomfortable by that which is most like us. And everything of which Scientology is accused is an exaggerated form of what more "normal" religions do. Does Scientology charge money for services? Yes—but the average Mormon, tithing 10 percent annually, pays more money to his church than all but the most committed Scientologists pay to theirs. Jews buying "tickets" to high-holiday services can easily part with thousands of dollars a year per family. Is Scientology authoritarian and cultlike? Yes—but mainly at the higher levels, which is true of many religions. There may be pressure for members of Scientology's elite "Sea Organization" not to drop out, but pressure is also placed on Catholics who may want to leave some cloistered orders. Does Scientology embrace pseudoscience? Absolutely—but its "engrams" and "E-meter" are no worse than what's propagated by your average Intelligent Design enthusiast. In fact, its very silliness makes it less pernicious.

And what about the "Xenu" creation myth anti-Scientologists are so fond of? Scientologists have promised me that it is simply not part of their theology—some say they learned about Xenu from South Park. Several ex-Scientologists have sworn the opposite. Given his frequent conflation of science fiction, theology, and incoherent musings, I think that Hubbard may have taught that eons ago, the galactic warlord Xenu dumped 13.5 trillion beings in volcanoes on Earth, blowing them up and scattering their souls. But I'm not sure that it is an important part of Scientology's teachings. And if Xenu is part of the church's theology, it's no stranger than what's in Genesis. It's just newer and so seems weirder.

Religions appear strange in inverse proportion to their age. Judaism and Catholicism seem normal—or at least not deviant. Mormonism, less than 200 years old, can seem a bit incredible. And Scientology, founded 50 years ago, sounds truly bizarre. To hear from a burning bush 3,000 years ago is not as strange as meeting the Angel Moroni two centuries ago, which is far less strange than having a hack sci-fi writer as your prophet.

That's not to say that all religions are "equal" or equally deserving of respect. I'm no more a Scientologist than I am a Swedenborgian or a member of the Nation of Islam, and I do have two criticisms of Scientology that one rarely hears from Xenu-obsessed detractors.

First, while the introductory Scientology costs are not outlandish (for example, a member may pay about $200 for a dozen sessions of "auditing," to start out), the fees increase as adherents gain new knowledge through advanced course work (going "up the bridge to total freedom," in Scientology-speak)—and it does make the religion resemble a pyramid or matrix scheme. More than one Scientologist explained to me that they don't have the financial resources of the Catholic Church that come from thousands of years of donations. They have to charge. Well, that's not the whole truth. The secrecy surrounding Scientology's higher levels of knowledge has no apparent analog in the Abrahamic faiths, and the steep financial outlay to get higher knowledge seems also unique. Catholicism doesn't charge people to become learned, nor does Judaism. In fact, the greatest scholars in those faiths are often revered paupers: penniless rabbis and voluntarily poor priests, monks, and nuns.

Poverty is not Scientology's style, to say the least. That leads me to my second criticism: bad aesthetics! I have never been less religiously moved by ostensibly religious spaces than in Scientology buildings. Whether the Celebrity Centre in Los Angeles, the New York church off Times Square, or the local branch down the street from my house, Scientology buildings are filled with garish colors, flat-screen TVs showing silly, dull videos, and glossy pamphlets recycling the legend of the overrated L. Ron Hubbard, whom Scientologists revere as a scientist, writer, and seer of the first rank. In my opinion, Hubbard's books are bad, the movies they inspire are bad, and the derivative futuro-techno look that Scientology loves is an affront to good taste on every level. It's a religion that screams nouveau–Star Trek–riche. For those of us who seek mystery, wonder, and beauty in our religions, Scientology is a nonstarter.

But good taste, as art critic Dave Hickey says, is just the residue of someone else's privilege. Catholicism has its Gothic cathedrals, Judaism its timeless Torah scrolls. Scientology is brand-new, but it has played an impressive game of catch-up. In its drive to be a major world religion, it will inevitably go through a period when its absurdities and missteps are glaringly apparent. But someday it will be old and prosaic, and there may still be Scientologists. And when some of those Scientologists embezzle, lie, and steal—as they surely will—they'll seem no worse than Christians, Jews, or Muslims who have done the same.

Mark Oppenheimer, a senior book critic for the Forward, is writing a book about American oratory. He is coordinator of the Yale Journalism Initiative and hosts a podcast for the New Haven Independent.[/q]
 
Hey, I've long thought all religious types are whacked! :wink:
 
That was fascination, particularly with the older the religion is the more acceptibility, respectibility it gains. (Kind of like when people say Kwanzaa is a made up holiday, forgetting that Christmas was too) Scientology is in the (for it) unfortunate position of most of the people being more or less familiar with its inspirations if not its concepts (ie a science fiction writer fundametally created a religion, the perfect baby boomer religion) and we have the luxury of saying, "You've got to be joking, right?"
 
I've never assumed Scientologists in general are 'weirder than I am.' :shrug: Tom Cruise, from what (very little) I know about him, does seem to be an odd character, but then I tend to imagine he was always like that. Lots of people organize their lives and priorities in ways that are puzzling to me.

The author of that piece is a religious Jew BTW.
 
Good article. :up: I've always found it bizarre when people think I'm loony for believing in reincarnation when Christians believe in a virgin birth and talking burning bushes and many things that sound like fairy tales to me.

I really don't have much problem with Scientology. I, too, have been put off by the garish buildings and the focus on wealth, but then there's the Crystal Cathedral and the scary Robert Schuller (who I actually met once through my work years ago and man oh man, what a seriously creepy individual), not to mention the Pope's Prada shoes. And I do find the few Scientologists I've come into contact with to be arrogant but I could say that about people from many different beliefs and religions, including my own.

Scientology simply doesn't affect me or my life and to each his own. And I do find it amusing when (especially) Christians call it a cult because I see most religions as cultish.
 
I say cult...the newness of it makes it a cult, not to mention the paying your way up the ladder thing, and it being just randomly made up by some dude.

Now if it 1000 years there's as many Scientologists as there are Christians, Muslims, Jews or whatever...well then it's moved into the mainstream and escaped the "cult" label. But until then...cult all the way.
 
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phillyfan26 said:
You don't think that other religions were "made up by some dude?" :huh:

I think the main difference in this situation is how blatantly obvious and nearly irrefutable it is, having quotes from L. Ron Hubbard himself talking about how the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion. Christians and Jews don't have that kind of blatantly obvious evidence staring them in the face all of the time, so it's easier for them to pretend that their beliefs have more basis in fact (well that and the whole time issue).
 
phillyfan26 said:
You don't think that other religions were "made up by some dude?" :huh:

Oh I do...that's why I think if Scientology grows as widespread as the "major" religions it loses it's cult status, and becomes just like the other religions.
 
Scientology is a real religion and it should be treated as such, the coercion tactics utilised by the group as well as the anti-medication doctrine towards mental health are definitely deserving of scorn. The smear campaigns and legal methods used to attack critics are also great reasons to have a big problem with this religion.

One can't label it a sham religion simply because it goes against all the evidence and makes stupid claims.
 
I'm ok w all religions that help their fellow man become better ppl,and acknowledge there is a divine creator, in which Scientology does, therefore I'm ok w them.

There were 2 good articles on Scienetology -lately one on MSN and Rolling Stone, one of these which Irvine posted I think.

dbs
 
I guess what makes Scientology come across as a cult started back when Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise first became an item. With Tom's ranting on the Today show ("You don't know the history of psychology; I do"), and Katie's interview with W magazine where she sounded like a robot describing her excitement over Tom, I know a lot of people got the idea of Scientology being a cult.

I've only met one Scientologist, so I can't form opinions on the religion based on that one person.

I don't know much about Scientology, but what I find "looney" about them is their rejection of psychology and psychiatric drugs. I've known people who have gone through therapy and were on medication, and it changed their lives. So how could Scientologists be so against something that people can benefit from?
 
I would class Scientology as approximately as creepy as Opus Dei (which makes it pretty creepy).

Someone tried to recruit me into Opus Dei when I was at college, even at the time as a practising Catholic I thought they were odd fish, and turned them down flat.
 
Actually even if one takes the 'religion is all nonsense' tack, there is a distinct difference. As others have pointed out, a science fiction writer in the 1950s basically wrote his own religion for a lark.

The long-standing world religions have evolved with and through human culture over millenia. Even if not scientifically 'true' (hardly the point), there is a lot more to them than a guy just makin' shit up.

Religions, interestingly, evolve organically. how ironic. But true. There would have been no Christianity if there had not first been Judaism. And its spiritual precursors. Yeah, just not the same as L. Ron Hubbard writing a religion for fun and profit.

I think Scientology has at least as much in common with multi-level marketing as it does with 'religion'.
 
Scientology is weird. I'll feel this way until a Scientologist is willing to kindly explain why they/it is not. Many people feel this way. Tolerance be damned. I owe them nothing. They, on the other hand, need to account for what few views they do express so frighteningly in public - and with such a beacon of respectability in Tom Cruise.
:rolleyes:
 
Kieran McConville said:
Religions, interestingly, evolve organically. how ironic. But true. There would have been no Christianity if there had not first been Judaism. And its spiritual precursors. Yeah, just not the same as L. Ron Hubbard writing a religion for fun and profit.

I think Scientology has at least as much in common with multi-level marketing as it does with 'religion'.

Considering the fact that the pursuit of the almighty dollar is now pretty much “a religion” unto itself, it's not that far off when you think about it...
 
5F23.jpg


I can't believe no one has brought up the Movementarians. They're at least as legit as Scientology. :shrug:
 
Scientologists Descend on Minneapolis Collapse Site
Church Says It's There to Help, but Critics See Ulterior Motives
By MARCUS BARAM

MINNEAPOLIS, Aug. 3 —

They're ubiquitous at almost every disaster zone, assisting the wounded and consoling grieving families, from Ground Zero to Indonesia to New Orleans and now Minneapolis.

The Church of Scientology and its globetrotting team of volunteer ministers have been active over the last several years, arousing the ire of critics who read unholy motives into the group's charitable works.

Soon after Wednesday's bridge collapse, at least 20 Scientology volunteers in Minneapolis and surrounding areas headed to the disaster zone, according to a spokeswoman for the church.

"They're helping the Red Cross, helping with logistical organization -- food, directing traffic and one-on-one counseling," the church's Karin Pouw told ABCNews.com.

The call to action was typical for the controversial church, which sent 20 ministers to console survivors of the Virginia Tech shooting, at least 800 volunteers including celebrity adherents John Travolta and Kirstie Alley to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina, and teams of therapists to assist Ground Zero rescue workers at the World Trade Center site.

The church says that its yellow-shirted 95,000 ministers around the world perform good deeds out of a sense of charity.

Sometimes they hand out "The Way to Happiness," a pamphlet written by the church's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, and offer a forms of therapy called "touch assists" and "nerve assists."

But critics accuse the church of using these disasters to convert people at their most vulenrable moments to their religion.

Longtime critic Rick Ross, who runs a watchdog Web site, cultnews.net, maintains that the church milks human tragedy to promote itself.

After the church's volunteers headed down to Blacksburg, Va., to assist survivors of the shooting massacre, Ross told the New York Daily News that he was skeptical of their motives.

"They did this at Ground Zero [after 9/11]," Ross told the paper. "They did this in New Orleans [after Hurricane Katrina]. They look for very high-profile disasters that can be milked for photo ops" to promote the Church.

After 9/11, the church received a commendation from the New York Fire Department for its relief efforts, but critics accused it of applying therapies such as rhythmic massages that some mental health professionals considered medically dubious.

"The public needs to understand that the Scientologists are using this tragedy to recruit new members," Michael M. Faenza, the president of the National Mental Health Association said in 2001. "They are not providing mental health assistance."

In Minneapolis, the group said it's working with the Red Cross. Yet members of the Red Cross working at the disaster zone questioned by ABC News weren't aware of the Church's assistance.

"We will stay in Minneapolis as long as help is needed," said church spokeswoman Pouw.
 
As much as I despise Scientology... sorry, but you'll see members of every church at places where a tragedy happened. And there are always people hoping for some to join their religion (which isn't to say that everyone hopes for it, but so it is with Scientologists).
 
nathan1977 said:
Scientology isn't a religion. At this point it's more or less a networking club for Hollywood folks.



what qualifies or disqualifies something from the status of a "religion"? who gets to determine that?
 
Irvine511 said:




what qualifies or disqualifies something from the status of a "religion"? who gets to determine that?

It's a good question, huh. I was giving it a bit of thought when bvs posed the question, too, being one who thinks it isn't a Church. So how can I say that? I'll admit I don't really know. I don't know what makes a Church, one of the long standing and respected ones, one, anyway. Is it genuine belief in a god and teachings of good? Or at least learnings along the path of good and bad, evil and purity, etc. Without bogging down in airy-fairy wankering, is there a god at the heart or core of Scientology? I don't see religion. I do liken that absence to other religions we have today, but I won't keep going on because only more people will be offended.
 
Angela Harlem said:

Without bogging down in airy-fairy wankering, is there a god at the heart or core of Scientology? I don't see religion.

From what I've read, they believe in a Supreme Being and the practitioners of Scientology have as their goal spiritual enlightenment, but they don't "worship" God because they don't feel that humans can truly worship God until they've attained enlightenment. They respect the Bible as the teachings of Jesus Christ and have no argument with it, much as, say, the Buddhists accept Jesus and the Bible. They say they welcome all denominations, so that one can be a Catholic Scientologist, for example. They are, in my opinion, the very definition of a religion, no better and no worse than Christianity. :shrug:

Truth be told, I probably respect Scientology more than Christianity.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
But critics accuse the church of using these disasters to convert people at their most vulnerable moments to their religion.

Longtime critic Rick Ross, who runs a watchdog Web site, cultnews.net, maintains that the church milks human tragedy to promote itself.

I think we've effectively described every "religious charity" here, which is why most non-Christians are quite suspicious of government-funded "faith-based initiatives."
 
SCIENTOLOGY IS DANGEROUS - What Would Tyler Durden Do

SCIENTOLOGY IS DANGEROUS 5.11.2007

For years the rumor has been that Jett Travolta, the now 14-year-old son of John Travolta and Kelly Preston, is autistic. Unfortunately for Jett, autism is not recognized by the Church of Scientology, of which Preston and Travolta are both prominent members. The Travolta's instead say he suffers from Kawasaki syndrome, an illness characterized by high fever, painful rash, lymph-node swelling and street legal rice-rockets. Four years ago, Kelly got out her hounds-tooth coat and pipe and giant magnifying glass and used her sleuthiness to determine that the cause was environmental toxins. Specifically, carpet cleaning chemicals. Then Kelly used a Scientology endorsed program created by L. Ron Hubbard to cure him. And it worked! No, wait, did I say, "it worked"? I meant to say, "it failed completely!"

I say we give the Scientology method a few more years to kick in. Soon, Jett will be dead. Ta-da!
 
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