Science and Religion

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

You too, man! Feels a bit energized in here

A little off topic - what version of Trivial Pursuit do you play? My dad has Genus II and he kicks my arse with all the Baby Boomer TV show references...

[Jive Turkey]

My gf bought me the 25th anniversary edition for my bday last year. It's not the genius edition, but I'm afraid nobody would play with me if it were it's hard enough to get them to play as it is

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

Since it now seems that quantum phenomena is required to "run" the brain - it seems to open the door the real possibility (meaning highly probable) that our consciousness is more than the sum of the parts of our physical brain.

And when you throw in wacky concepts like Superposition, Entanglement, and the Heisenberg principle - it seems to lend support that our "mind" - if it is indeed comprised of particles - can exist outside our brain. Setting the spiritual implications aside - the Transhumanist movements is predicting the ability to upload our minds into the "cloud" and then download it into a separate body (if you choose to even have a body).

Even if it turns out the brain is some sort of quantum computer random numbers machine, this has little relation to consciousness. The more we learn about the brain, the more it seems consciousness is just a product of the organ. I think you would be hard pressed to find a reasonable argument for dualism. The reality is, quantum phenomena do little to open the door to that possibility. If anything, they raise questions about free will, but not consciousness

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

the Transhumanist movements is predicting the ability to upload our minds into the "cloud" and then download it into a separate body (if you choose to even have a body).

Joking aside - Transhumanism fascinates me - and I wrestle with what role my faith will play in the events leading up to and beyond the Singularity.

Even if it were theoretically possible to map your brain, atom for atom at any given time, then 'rebuild' that map using materials that aren't your own, the new 'entity' wouldn't be any more you than would a genetic clone. The entity would share your memories, emotions, mental state, etc, - it would even fool your friends into believing it was you - but it would be a separate being. You would no longer exists, but the new being would be convinced it was You. It would be picking up where you left off, but with the benefit of the illusion of all your prior experiences. A mind fuck if there ever was one

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Even if it turns out the brain is some sort of quantum computer random numbers machine, this has little relation to consciousness. The more we learn about the brain, the more it seems consciousness is just a product of the organ. I think you would be hard pressed to find a reasonable argument for dualism. The reality is, quantum phenomena do little to open the door to that possibility. If anything, they raise questions about free will, but not consciousness

So, do you think it is possible for your consciousness to be backed up onto a hard drive (or whatever) some day? If so - wouldn't this be the very definition of dualism (as it relates to mind/body - not necessarily the Gnostic/Platonic version of the term.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Even if it were theoretically possible to map your brain, atom for atom at any given time, then 'rebuild' that map using materials that aren't your own, the new 'entity' wouldn't be any more you than would a genetic clone.

That's interesting that you say that. That's how many "religious" people feel.

I haven't come to a conclusion yet.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

So, do you think it is possible for your consciousness to be backed up onto a hard drive (or whatever) some day? If so - wouldn't this be the very definition of dualism (as it relates to mind/body - not necessarily the Gnostic/Platonic version of the term.

No, I don't believe it's possible. That's what I meant by it being a different being. The physical state of your brain could theoretically be mapped out atom by atom and rebuilt with organic materials in the exact same state. But You (ie, the person from whom they mapped the state) would not be transported into the new entity; but somewhat paradoxically, the new entity would believe it to be you. And would believe that he had been transported

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

That's interesting that you say that. That's how many "religious" people feel.

I haven't come to a conclusion yet.

I think you're maybe reading it in a way I hadn't intended. The new entity would be a new organism (we're talking about rebuilding atom for atom. creating organic material). The old you would be cease to exist. As if you were replaced by a pod person.

Actually, to be more clear, it could theoretically then be possible to map your physical brain state at any given time, then build, atom for atom, particle for particle, another being from that map, while not destroying the original. Would you then believe your consciousness exists in two separate organisms? Because the state of the new entity's mind would be exactly the same as yours at the time it was mapped. It would have the illusion of every experience you've ever had. It would believe that it had existed as long as you had

[Jive Turkey]

There's a thought experiment about this that I will find for you

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

There's a thought experiment about this that I will find for you

I look forward to it - because we are probably only a few decades away from having to make this choice...

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

I look forward to it - because we are probably only a few decades away from having to make this choice...

But if we're talking about quantum states, it could very well be impossible to map at a sufficient resolution

[digitize]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

There's a thought experiment about this that I will find for you

Parfit's teletransporter to Mars?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by digitize

Parfit's teletransporter to Mars?

yes! I was going to say if I couldn't find it in time, you might chime in

[Jive Turkey]

I think it was Dennett's version of the Teleclone Mk VI I read though

Here's a bit of it. not from the text I originally got it, but it's all I could find

Daniel Dennett’s Intro to ‘The Mind’s I’ | Dontdontoperate's Blog

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by digitize

Parfit's teletransporter to Mars?

Thoughts?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Thoughts?

I might have to digest it later tonight or tomorrow. I'm having a few beers and watching shark week with my son

[Jive Turkey]

oooh! Have fun!

Beware the fake C. Megalodon documentary
Discovery Channel

[digitize]

This is the last week of my internship and I've been staying late at work to add features to and remove bugs from my project before I leave New York, so my ability to write good posts is diminished. I'll try to write some thoughts on stuff soon.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Beware the fake C. Megalodon documentary
Discovery Channel

Fake?

I suppose this means mermaids aren't real either.

[Jive Turkey]

I didn't watch it, so I don't know how apparent it was that it wasn't real. People are very unhappy though