![]() |
#41 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
They're still atheists
__________________ |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#42 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York / Dallas / Austin
Posts: 14,076
Local Time: 06:05 PM
|
I figured that I'd throw in my thoughts on this issue, since it's something about which I think a lot.
__________________I can relate very strongly to the feeling of wanting to find God in the universe, because that's a feeling that I've felt extraordinarily strongly. But my (god-given?) senses give me little reason to. I am about as far as one can get from being an expert on physics, but my limited knowledge gives me no forward reason to believe in a god, and I am quite certain that most experts in the field would feel the same way. It is easy to generate god of the gaps-style arguments, especially with quantum physics, which many people use as a god of the gaps argument for just about anything without understanding it at all. I've also been drawn into the mind/body problem as a great gap into which one can insert God. How does objective reality generate subjective qualia, the experiences in our mind which seem rather divorced from objective reality? Why do red's wavelengths produce a particular sensation? It's easy to talk about biology and evolution and the like, but all that talk skirts around a fundamental issue: the experiential seemingly having a property of radical emergence from the physically objective. That's primarily where I've tried to insert God, and still occasionally do. And although I do believe that the mind/body problem is still an issue, God seems like a solution only in the sense that His existence would provide a neat and tidy explanation for everything. That's hardly strong grounds to warrant my belief. And yet, I just have this incredibly hard time shaking that there is a God out there, organizing the universe and my life. Perhaps I'm wired that way. Perhaps that colors my rather friendly views towards religion, as I can empathize with religious people very strongly. I often feel an intuitive pull towards the existence of a god. Perhaps that pull ought to serve as a warning to me, because I know how a strong feeling for a god can coexist with a dearth of scientific evidence for that feeling's validity, and I can see how easily that can push people towards believing in scientifically unjustifiable things. I cannot really let myself be religious, but not allowing myself to be religious takes an override of mind over emotion, and I doubt that I will ever feel emotionally certain in my beliefs. The type of religious faith that I respect most greatly is that which throws out all pretense of being based on reasonable science, and that which does not pin its hopes to future scientific discoveries. I believe very strongly that science will never find real evidence of a god. I also believe that it will always leave questions. But, if a question cannot be reached via science, then a certain answer can, by definition, never be reached for it. To me, that leaves faith as a beautiful thing of feeling that there must be something great organizing things, that there must be a why. Such a belief is unprovable and untestable, but I strongly respect those who hold it. At the same time, I have a somewhat cynical view of humanity, as creatures that tend to discover what they believe and then discover why they are "correct", bending evidence to make it work. That happens, and it lends credence to the theory that religious belief is just something that we are semi-programmed to have in spite of its absurdity. And yet... it's tough to not believe. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#43 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
|
Quote:
![]() That's a great post. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#44 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
|
I think that might be a bit strong of a definition. I would agree they would not accepts an Anthropomorphic/Abrahamic type of God - or that anything about God can even really be discussed - but they often seem to accept an idea similar to the Stoic's concept of Logos (as mentioned earlier).
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#45 | ||||
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
![]() You need only go back a couple hundred years for god to be forefront in our lives. He was the reason for the cycles of the sun and moon. The reason for the seasons. He put all living things on the Earth as they are today. Created the Earth and stars. But now he has been regulated to the very small and the very long ago; to singularities beyond our current technological gaze and to influencing probabilities at the quantum scale. When do you say uncle? |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#46 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#47 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
|
Well then, I suppose I'm still of a bit atheist according to your very wide net - since I accept more of the Eastern Orthodox view that God is transcendent and ultimately unknowable (I am not Orthodox Christian- I just agree with some things) - meaning we, with our limited minds, can only define God by what He is not - not by what He truly is.
Thankfully, through my faith in Jesus Christ and through the indwelling Holy Spirit - I can experience His "energy" and know His personality as Father through awe and wonder of the universe, through prayer, and through the occasional deep encounter. This is highly subjective and I could not expect you, as a non-believer, to understand. However, as I said before, when we are discussing anything beyond what can be observed, tested, and verified - theology and philosophy suddenly become an important voice. You don't have to agree with them - but I think it would serve you well (if your intention is to plug into the total human experience and understanding of Metaphysics) not to simply dismiss all religion as childish fairy stories. Many bright minds (brighter than either of us) belong to one faith or another - to dismiss them all as simple-minded is being...well...simple-minded. Science and theology are not at war (at least not for me). All science fits within my faith. Meaning - science does a fantastic job of discovering and explaining everything that can be observed, tested, and verified within this "realm" of existence...and to me - that is just fraction of the Big Picture. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#48 | ||
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
Quote:
As it stands, on 10% or so of the brightest minds believe in a god. I think that 10% speaks more to the strength of belief than it does to anything else Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#49 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
Let's get digitize back in here. Consciousness is a fascinating topic. I was a bit tipsy when I wrote my response last night (today is a holiday in Canada. Trivial Pursuit and Guinness last night. Fun times), but I read back through it and everything looked fine. How about Aeon or DM? Any thoughts?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#50 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#51 | ||
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
|
Quote:
Quote:
I often struggle in church settings (especially in anything evangelical, but my wife is that - so I go) because they do have a sense of war with science. But that is changing. Of course, they still think I'm a heretic for quoting men like Ray Kurzweil...However, you might be surprised to discover that Catholics and Anglicans are very fond of modern science. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#52 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
Quote:
I'd guess there's probably a mix of atheism and agnosticism. I'd venture to guess a great deal of them probably don't think about it often unless asked. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#53 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Mighty Jagrafess of the Holy Hadrojassic Maxaroedenfoe
Posts: 2,146
Local Time: 12:05 AM
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
Here's the study those numbers are from. 1998. Maybe we're about due for another one
Nature, "Leading scientists still reject God" July 23, 1998 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#55 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York / Dallas / Austin
Posts: 14,076
Local Time: 06:05 PM
|
Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#56 | |||
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,443
Local Time: 12:05 AM
|
Quote:
Scientists' faith varies starkly by discipline - Technology & science - Science - LiveScience | NBC News Quote:
Survey: Most doctors believe in God, afterlife - Health - Health care | NBC News Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#57 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 08:05 PM
|
Quote:
We're also not told where the data is coming from, whereas with the study I posted, it's quite clear. My point was, the higher you go in the scientific hierarchy, the more apparent the lack of belief. These other studies do nothing to discredit that |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#58 | ||
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,443
Local Time: 12:05 AM
|
Quote:
"Science vs. Religion" discovers what scientists really think about religion Quote:
(I'm also not sure that charging Ecklund's study with bias since it was funded by the Templeton Foundation makes a lot of sense -- particularly given that the Templeton Foundation awards lots of grants related to scientific exploration, including Professor Martin Nowak, Director of the Program for Evolutionary Dynamics at Harvard University.) |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#59 |
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,647
Local Time: 07:05 PM
|
Oops. See next post.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#60 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 05:05 PM
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|