Science and Religion

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

I do find Entropy as...well...Biblical.

whatchoo mean?

[AEON]

lol - here's some Scripture that I think captures the idea of entropy without the benefit of a modern understanding of physics...

Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail. - Isaiah 51:6

the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay. - Romans 8:21

There's also a reference to God as the source of the universe expanding (Dark Energy?)

This is what God the LORD says - the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out - Isaiah 42:5

Now - I'm not mistaking the Bible for a science book. I actually use these verses to help other Christians understand that theology and science do not cancel each other out.

These are poetic, observation verses to help us understand the vastness and wonder of the universe - and it also describes it is in a state of slow decay (Entropy). I think that's sort of cool.

[AEON]

JT? Are you off reading Scripture somewhere?

[Jive Turkey]

I'm trying to memorize all my begots

[AEON]

You know I think this thread has inspired to prepare to take the undergrad Quantum Physics track at MIT OCW. I've watched the Stanford lectures, but I didn't do any of the assignments.

I'm going to take refresher classes in Calculus and Differential Equations before I do.

I was an MIS/English major and then an MBA, but I want to get into the math instead of just reading their conclusion and watching their awesome seminars.

The way I see it - we're about the reverse the aging process within 10-15 years - combined with breakthroughs in nootropics and BCI's - starting off my Theoretical Physics education at the tender age of 43 shouldn't be an issue. Because by the time I'm ready to make an impact and discover the essence of Dark Energy, I'll be a 22 year old genius with wisdom far beyond his years...

[U2DMfan]

Originally Posted by AEON

we're about the reverse the aging process within 10-15 years -

How do you, as a believer, see the line between such (potential) scientific advances and 'playing God'? Does it depend on the subject?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by U2DMfan

How do you, as a believer, see the line between such (potential) scientific advances and 'playing God'? Does it depend on the subject?

For the most part I don't see scientific advancements as a threat to God, or my faith. Since I accept that God is ultimately sovereign - if he really wanted to stop our progress, he would (and he still might, but until he does - I say with press forward).

However, I do think there will be some serious issues to address if we continue our rapid technological progress. For instance - if we could live forever (or very extended lives) - then some evil person or system could in theory lock someone in a torture chamber for a million years. A literal Hell.

But I would personally welcome the chance for a radically extended life (provided it also came with youth and health). We live in a wonderful universe and I'd love to take a few billion years to explore it and maybe write some poetry on some distant moon. Maybe, when I'm bored some day in the way distant future - I'll surrender my "life" in this realm for my life in the next one.

How do you feel about things like Transhumanism? Can humans be trusted with such extreme tech?

[U2DMfan]

Originally Posted by AEON

How do you feel about things like Transhumanism? Can humans be trusted with such extreme tech?

Humans, in general, can't be trusted with anything that can be exploited for monetary or material gain. That sounds so cynical...but I believe it's true, in general. Transhumanism is not a subject I've given a ton of thought too but I basically see something in that vein as being inevitable, at least in terms of physical advancement. Given how superficial we are as a species. I would also suspect that unless the intellectual aspect is just as easy to 'acquire' it would lag behind just as it always has. Hope that made sense.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by U2DMfan

Hope that made sense.

Sadly, yes.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

For the most part I don't see scientific advancements as a threat to God, or my faith. Since I accept that God is ultimately sovereign - if he really wanted to stop our progress, he would (and he still might, but until he does - I say with press forward).

However, I do think there will be some serious issues to address if we continue our rapid technological progress. For instance - if we could live forever (or very extended lives) - then some evil person or system could in theory lock someone in a torture chamber for a million years. A literal Hell.

But I would personally welcome the chance for a radically extended life (provided it also came with youth and health). We live in a wonderful universe and I'd love to take a few billion years to explore it and maybe write some poetry on some distant moon. Maybe, when I'm bored some day in the way distant future - I'll surrender my "life" in this realm for my life in the next one.

How do you feel about things like Transhumanism? Can humans be trusted with such extreme tech?

But what about the ethics with living for artificially extended lives? I'm aware that the argument could be made that we're currently living for artificially long periods of time, but if we're talking virtual immortality [there's an equation that says even if we can defend from 'natural' causes (cancer, heart disease, etc), 700 years is still the upper limit before probability catches up to us], are we not morally obligated to step out of the way for future generations? We're already stressing our natural resources as it is

[nathan1977]

Read this and thought it was interesting...


http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/0...r-of-scientism

[Jive Turkey]

scientism isn't a thing. it's one more made up word from the religious side in a long list of "I know you are but what am I" arguments. I'll place it in the cylindrical filing cabinet along with "atheism is a religion too" and "you need faith to believe in evolution"

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

-are we not morally obligated to step out of the way for future generations? We're already stressing our natural resources as it is

There are some assumptions I've made:


1) Technology such a molecular manufacturing, desalination, cheap solar, graphene, food printing, nanotechnology...etc will greatly reduce our reliance on natural resources and allow us to expand the earth's population.

2) Over the course of a few hundred years, that same technology will allow is to begin colonizing the moon, Mars, spaceships...etc.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

There are some assumptions I've made:


1) Technology such a molecular manufacturing, desalination, cheap solar, graphene, food printing, nanotechnology...etc will greatly reduce our reliance on natural resources and allow us to expand the earth's population.

2) Over the course of a few hundred years, that same technology will allow is to begin colonizing the moon, Mars, spaceships...etc.

All these things need base 'building blocks' that will inevitably have to come from the environment. But for argument's sake, lets say they don't. Do we really need to populate the Earth with more people? The space alone comes at a great expense to the natural environment. Natural habitats and wild animals will pay the price.
Even if we do eventually expand out into the solar system, that's likely to be a slow and labourious process and will probably do little to curb the effects of monumental population explosion.

It's an interesting thought though. I imagine in a world where we're able to stave off death, they'd feel very sorry for us unfortunate folks who were unlucky enough to have been born before that technology was realized.

Oh, and congrats on the decision to go back and take more courses that's awesome

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I imagine in a world where we're able to stave off death, they'd feel very sorry for us unfortunate folks who were unlucky enough to have been born before that technology was realized.

According to Kurzweil, you just have to make until 2045. His projections are known to be accurate, but often a bit optimistic on the timing and mass adoption. So, let's say 2055. I'll be 85 - cutting it close...but like I said, in the next 10-15 years there will be many breakthroughs to slow down and reverse some aging, these are what they call the "bridge" years - to "live long enough to live forever."

Ray Kurzweil — Immortality by 2045 - YouTube

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Oh, and congrats on the decision to go back and take more courses that's awesome

Thanks, man. It'll be awesome. I love the this move toward open/free courses. I've done enough "official" schooling for me resume, not I can take classes that actually excite me.

[Jive Turkey]

Ray Kurzweil is a kook. He might've got some things right in the past, but he seems to have spiraled into this weird obsession with death after his father passed away. It seems to have clouded his judgement a great deal.

The idea of living forever is almost as horrifying as being dead forever

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Ray Kurzweil is a kook. He might've got some things right in the past, but he seems to have spiraled into this weird obsession with death after his father passed away. It seems to have clouded his judgement a great deal

Yeah, I quote him because most people know him. And he is pretty well accomplished.

I do prefer this guy:

Aubrey de Grey: A roadmap to end aging

[Jive Turkey]

Kurzweil's understanding of technology is also much better than his understanding of biology, which seems to be pretty bad

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by AEON

I don't know, man. We can't even figure out how to keep people dying from cancer, heart disease, and countless other ailments and this guy thinks we'll be extending lifespans indefinitely in the coming decades? He's never even clear on how he proposes we do that other than "start getting serious about it" as if researchers aren't already working tirelessly to try and find cures for these things. Not sure I'd put much stock into this

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I don't know, man. We can't even figure out how to keep people dying from cancer, heart disease, and countless other ailments and this guy thinks we'll be extending lifespans indefinitely in the coming decades? He's never even clear on how he proposes we do that other than "start getting serious about it" as if researchers aren't already working tirelessly to try and find cures for these things. Not sure I'd put much stock into this

If you to places like /futurology on reddit, can you find links to breakthroughs they're making every day.