Roadmap to HELL - One man caught on a barbed wire fence ....

[Irvine511]

A game of "but he STARTED it" seems te least productive way to address this particular conflict or the broader conflict.

 

[digitize]

A game of "but he STARTED it" seems te least productive way to address this particular conflict or the broader conflict.

Yeah, absolutely. Right now, I feel sorry for the innocent people being hurt on both sides. And I can understand why both sides feel like firing rockets at the other side is a good response. I just disagree with it. But I'm comfortably thousands of miles away from the situation.

 

[sarit]

Just coming out of the shelter after another rocket fired at us, I still don't think it is such a great idea. This time the explosion sounded a bit stronger...

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Awful to see this all going on. Stay safe everyone here who is in harm's way.

 

[AchtungBono]

Hamas wants end to blockade in cease-fire talks, official says - CNN.com

In other words:

Hamas:
"Dear Israel - we will stop firing rockets on your civillians if you lift the blockade that currently prevents us from getting the rockets to fire on your civillians..."

Yeah right....THAT'LL happen!

You know the story already....I've been telling it for the past 4 years since operation "lead cast" in 2008.
I live in a city that is currently being bombarded by missiles at least 5 times a day if not more. I sit in our living room with my mother and sister and I pray for two things: 1. that we remain safe, 2. that there will be NO cease-fire. I don't care how long I have to endure air-raid sirens and missiles falling 10 minutes from my house - as long as our army can get the job done.

Besides my city, there have been people living in Sderot and the towns around Gaza that have endured constant shelling for twelve years now.....TWELVE YEARS......think about that.... If Mexico lobbed missiles at New York City day after day, do you think the U.S. would wait for 12 years and just take it?.....I don't think the U.S, would wait 12 SECONDS let alone 12 years.

A cease fire means only one thing - Hamas taking a breather, restocking their missile supply with the help of their new best friend Muhammed Morsi of Egypt, who will no doubt be more than happy to open the Rafah crossing and turn a blind eye to the smuggling tunnels.

Uh uh.....not THIS time sweeties.....we have 75,000 troops lined up and ready to make mincemeat out of those idiots in bedsheets.

Oh, and by the way...about that old song and dance about Israel killing the poor civillians in Gaza, let me just remind the world that Israel does NOT target civillians and the only reason they are killed is because Hamas hides their launchers and stockpiles under schools and mosques and in heavilly populated areas. We already know that they don't give a damm about their own people and they would rather spend millions of dollars on weapons than on clean drinking water and proper sewage for the populace.

Besides, if we DID target civillians like they do, this operation would be over in one day.

So again, I do not want a cease-fire. I want the IDF to go in and kick some MOFO ass.....

Have a nice day........

P.S.: If I sound angry, it's not directed at you guys. I know you support us and that you don't want any harm to come to us and I appreciate that VERY much.

 

[Diemen]

Uh uh.....not THIS time sweeties.....we have 75,000 troops lined up and ready to make mincemeat out of those idiots in bedsheets.

While I appreciate that this is a complex & difficult situation, this kind of ugly rhetoric doesn't help.

 

[AchtungBono]

While I appreciate that this is a complex & difficult situation, this kind of ugly rhetoric doesn't help.

Hi Diemen,
I'm sorry but there's really no nice word to describe a terrorist organization.
That's the kindest thing I could think of.

 

[digitize]

Uh uh.....not THIS time sweeties.....we have 75,000 troops lined up and ready to make mincemeat out of those idiots in bedsheets.

That sounds like a great action to take if your goal is to create as much Islamic radicalism and anti-Israeli sentiment as possible. This has been tried over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again in human history. And it absolutely never works.

 

[digitize]

I'm sorry, AchtungBono... I don't mean to sound insensitive to what you are going through. Because it sounds horrific, and it's honestly beyond my comprehension. I don't blame you for being in the mood that you are in.

It's just tough for me, because this conflict really follows the same colonizer/colonized dynamics that the world has been going through for hundreds of years. And when one side of the conflict is so economically marginalized compared to the other, when one side feels like it has had its prosperity taken from it by the other in recent memory, and when re-gaining prosperity entails going to the "other side"... it always breeds radicalism. Always. And responding with massive fire always creates more radicalism. Radicalism is bred by poverty, and by destruction, and the two combine to make radicals out of everyday people. Economic development and interdependence are usually a good way out, but the blockade is only making that less possible.

 

[anitram]

If Mexico lobbed missiles at New York City day after day, do you think the U.S. would wait for 12 years and just take it?.....I don't think the U.S, would wait 12 SECONDS let alone 12 years.

I hope that you stay safe, AchtungBono, as well as your family and friends. I imagine everyone must be really tired and frustrated of this situation dragging on for years, and actually decades.

But the above analogy is poor because it isn't as if the US is occupying the Yucatan peninsula or some other part of the contiguous Mexican state or expanding its cities in southern Texas across the border and then annexing large parts of the land around them.

In no way am I suggesting that the latest militant behaviour by Hamas is acceptable, but this is not a simple conflict that has clear lines of delineation like what you suggest with NYC above.

 

[deep]

it becomes harder and harder to be 100% align with the Israeli government and all the people that have migrated there over the last 5-6 decades

the Israeli population is comprised of many millions of non-middle eastern people, these people are former Americans, both North and South, European and Soviet peoples. They have migrated to this part of the middle east called many things; Palestine, Israel, West Bank, Gaza, Holy Land, Judea and Samaria.

So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.

What is the rational for saying Israel has no fault in this situation?

 

[Pearl]

So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.

The thing here is that many of these "migrants" truly believe they are in their ancestral homeland and they are really indigenous to Israel. So they think they have a right to move in.

 

[deep]

that really is not true, it is a false premise that some 'religious minded' people put out there

but it is not only a false premise, but also false in practice.

a person could be a full blooded Swede, able to trace his ancestry back 1000s of years in Europe. If he chose to convert to Judaism he could and would be granted a full Israeli citizenship with full privileges over a person that was born what is called Israel, if that person is not Jewish.
He/she could trace their ancestry back to the time of Jesus, and have lived on that same land continuously.
Again, how can anyone make a rational argument for non-citizenship in one's ancestral homeland oven a non middle
easterner, European being given full citizenship.

 

[Pearl]

that really is not true, it is a false premise that some 'religious minded' people put out there

but it is not only a false premise, but also false in practice.

a person could be a full blooded Swede, able to trace his ancestry back 1000s of years in Europe. If he chose to convert to Judaism he could and would be granted a full Israeli citizenship with full privileges over a person that was born what is called Israel, if that person is not Jewish.
He/she could trace their ancestry back to the time of Jesus, and have lived on that same land continuously.
Again, how can anyone make a rational argument for non-citizenship in one's ancestral homeland oven a non middle
easterner, European being given full citizenship.

I was simply pointing how many justify going to Israel and settling in areas they are not supposed to settle in, according to international law.

 

[deep]

ok, fair enough

I am familiar with the argument, I was raised with believers, with the concepts of 'chosen people', Israel being restored in the 'last days', the temple being rebuilt, these were things I learned as a young child and I believed they were the right things to be happening, all on the foundation of our religious beliefs.

Once, I started letting go of religion influencing my beliefs, I went to the concept of is this the 'the right' or 'most' right thing to do. Why should one sides religious arguments have more sway than the other side? Should religious arguments have influence in taking territory away from one group and giving it to another?

I try and be aware of what all sides are saying.
In the end I can only say what I believe are more credible and legitimate arguments.

And sadly sometimes there is not an ideal outcome, or even a better outcome, only less bad ones.

 

[anitram]

Once, I started letting go of religion influencing my beliefs, I went to the concept of is this the 'the right' or 'most' right thing to do. Why should one sides religious arguments have more sway than the other side?

 

[AchtungBono]

Hello everyone,

First of all, thank you very much for your good wishes. It is truly a horrible situation that we keep experiencing due to the fact that I have a terrorist organization ruling an area that is slightly two hours away from my house.....

Your moral support is appreciated.


Elaine

 

[AchtungBono]

I hope that you stay safe, AchtungBono, as well as your family and friends. I imagine everyone must be really tired and frustrated of this situation dragging on for years, and actually decades.

But the above analogy is poor because it isn't as if the US is occupying the Yucatan peninsula or some other part of the contiguous Mexican state or expanding its cities in southern Texas across the border and then annexing large parts of the land around them.

In no way am I suggesting that the latest militant behaviour by Hamas is acceptable, but this is not a simple conflict that has clear lines of delineation like what you suggest with NYC above.

Hello Anitram,

If you're inferring to our supposed occupation of Gaza, that's a poor argument because we've been out of Gaza since 2005 when we unilaterally left the Gaza strip, lock stock and barrel. We left the area without reaching any agreement with anyone and being as naive as I am I thought that the Palestinians would use the vacated territories to build homes and help get their people out of the refugee camps so to better their lives......silly me.

Instead, the terrorist organizations used the empty land to move their rockets closer to our towns and intensify their shelling which they've been doing since 2000.

So my analogy is quite appropriate.

 

[anitram]

So my analogy is quite appropriate.

No it is not.

The USA is not placing Mexico under a naval and ground blockade, does not control its borders or in any other way, does not control its airspace, does not control its imports/exports, does not control whether Mexicans from the the state of Yucatan can travel to the state of Chihuahua, etc. It is a completely different situation and a nonsensical analogy.

 

[PhilsFan]

Forgive me (and others) if I don't think an Israeli has the most objective outlook on the situation there.

 

[AchtungBono]

it becomes harder and harder to be 100% align with the Israeli government and all the people that have migrated there over the last 5-6 decades

the Israeli population is comprised of many millions of non-middle eastern people, these people are former Americans, both North and South, European and Soviet peoples. They have migrated to this part of the middle east called many things; Palestine, Israel, West Bank, Gaza, Holy Land, Judea and Samaria.

So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.

What is the rational for saying Israel has no fault in this situation?

Hello Deep,

Actually, there has always been a Jewish presence in the holyland since biblical times when the Israelites came out of bondage in Egypt and came to the land of Canaan (as the land was known then) which was promised to them by G-d.

The Jewish presence continued until the destruction of the holy temple in Jerusalem and the Jews were driven out of the land by the Romans.

Throughout the centuries, the Jewish people have always aspired to return to the ancient homeland which had undergone occupation by foreign forces - the Greeks, the Romans, the Turks and the British.

Here is a short 30 minute documentary which will give you the history of the land and the state. This would be able to explain my point better than I can and hopefully you will have a better understanding.

Understanding the History of Israel Part 1 - YouTube

Understanding the History of Israel Part 2 - YouTube

 

[AchtungBono]

Forgive me (and others) if I don't think an Israeli has the most objective outlook on the situation there.

What do you mean?
I live here, I'm the one enduring missile attacks, I'm the one who's living in a land surrounded by hostile neighbors who want me wiped off the face of the earth.

How does that negate my opinion just because I'm Israeli? Quite the opposite, BECAUSE I'm an Israeli I am more qualified to speak my opinion because I know the actual facts on the ground whereas you and the world only get the distorted version.

That being said, I do respect your opinion and everybody elses.

 

[AchtungBono]

No it is not.

The USA is not placing Mexico under a naval and ground blockade, does not control its borders or in any other way, does not control its airspace, does not control its imports/exports, does not control whether Mexicans from the the state of Yucatan can travel to the state of Chihuahua, etc. It is a completely different situation and a nonsensical analogy.

Well, the USA is lucky that Mexico isn't its sworn enemy and doesn't receive arms from other nations who don't like the USA and want it destroyed.

The naval and ground blockade imposed on Gaza is to prevent arms from reaching the terrorists and for no other reason. Humanitarian aid is passing through the borders freely and without hindrance.

 

[Pearl]

This is disturbing:

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a large mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.
Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!"
The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites.

Hamas Kills 6 Suspected Israel Collaborators: Witnesses (GRAPHIC PHOTO)

If the Palestinians weren't so barbaric like this, they would get more global support. Why couldn't they just hold these alleged spies hostage instead of immediately killing them and causing global outrage?

 

[PhilsFan]

What do you mean?
I live here, I'm the one enduring missile attacks, I'm the one who's living in a land surrounded by hostile neighbors who want me wiped off the face of the earth.

How does that negate my opinion just because I'm Israeli? Quite the opposite, BECAUSE I'm an Israeli I am more qualified to speak my opinion because I know the actual facts on the ground whereas you and the world only get the distorted version.

That being said, I do respect your opinion and everybody elses.

It doesn't negate your opinion at all. But it certainly distorts it.

And you think I'm getting a distorted version? You're right. In the US, we do get a distorted version: a very, very pro-Israel version. So don't think I'm of this opinion because I'm hearing all this pro-Palestine talk in the US. We don't hear that. We hear your side and your side only. Which is probably what you hear as well.

 

[BoMac]

How does that negate my opinion just because I'm Israeli? Quite the opposite, BECAUSE I'm an Israeli I am more qualified to speak my opinion because I know the actual facts on the ground whereas you and the world only get the distorted version.

You mean in the same way that you make comments about American life and politics based on a distorted version you get from Fox News?

 

[BoMac]

This is disturbing:



Hamas Kills 6 Suspected Israel Collaborators: Witnesses (GRAPHIC PHOTO)

If the Palestinians weren't so barbaric like this, they would get more global support. Why couldn't they just hold these alleged spies hostage instead of immediately killing them and causing global outrage?

Here you go generalizing again. I know you don't mean to, but you need to choose your words carefully. A distinction needs to be made between Hamas and everyday Palestinians who want a peaceful outcome to the regional crisis.

 

[deep]

you do realize they are not Israelis, but Palestinians that were collaborating with the IDF to guide bombs to targets, residential buildings that may have a Hamas official in it.

if they were Israelis they would have been held for negotiations, the Israelis could give a damn about them, they were just paid informants.




and as for the 'global outrage' it is and has been trending against Israel and the IDF for years, it is like gay marriage, a slow but steady move in one direction.

 

[Pearl]

Here you go generalizing again. I know you don't mean to, but you need to choose your words carefully. A distinction needs to be made between Hamas and everyday Palestinians who want a peaceful outcome to the regional crisis.

Yeah I don't mean to, so calm down.

 

[BoMac]

I am calm.