Roadmap to HELL - One man caught on a barbed wire fence ....

[Irvine511]

i find it so ironic that conservative Christians -- generally, US Christians -- after kicking the shit out of the Jews for, like, 1000 years or whatever, are now all reverent about "the Jewish people."

i'd like to think it's just Rapture silliness and they're thrilled about these prophesied temple building skills, but i think it's more because they get some sort of sexual charge whenever anyone shoots a Muslim.

claims about who the land belongs too are, in most ways, entirely moot. the Israelis aren't going anywhere, and neither are the Palestinians. looking for historical justifications for land rights beyond the 1967 war is an exercise in futility.

let's just take Jerusalem and Berlin Wall that shit.

[the iron horse]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i find it so ironic that conservative Christians -- generally, US Christians -- after kicking the shit out of the Jews for, like, 1000 years or whatever, are now all reverent about "the Jewish people."

i'd like to think it's just Rapture silliness and they're thrilled about these prophesied temple building skills, but i think it's more because they get some sort of sexual charge whenever anyone shoots a Muslim.

claims about who the land belongs too are, in most ways, entirely moot. the Israelis aren't going anywhere, and neither are the Palestinians. looking for historical justifications for land rights beyond the 1967 war is an exercise in futility.

let's just take Jerusalem and Berlin Wall that shit.

So?

What is your point? What are you saying?


Can you keep it to one or three sentences?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

So?

What is your point? What are you saying?


Can you keep it to one or three sentences?

no, sorry. it's a complicated situation and doesn't lend itself well to soundbytes or quotes.

it takes reading and research to actually understand the situation.

if you look back, i've posted extensively on Israel/Palestine in the past, and have offered up several opinions in this thread.

perhaps you'd get better responses if your posts were longer than 2-3 sentences?

[the iron horse]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

no, sorry. it's a complicated situation and doesn't lend itself well to soundbytes or quotes.

it takes reading and research to actually understand the situation.

if you look back, i've posted extensively on Israel/Palestine in the past, and have offered up several opinions in this thread.

perhaps you'd get better responses if your posts were longer than 2-3 sentences?

I will try.

Thanks

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

I will try.

Thanks

Only two sentences there... Barely

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by popshopper

You call that lucid? His Korean analogy, letting Israel carry out the only investigation it to this would be like letting North Korea carry out an investigation in how the South Korean boat sank and given the boat was under Turkish law I'm not exactly sure what the legal justification would be for an Israeli investigation...but oh wait it's Israeli, legality only apply when it suits Israel.

You totally missed his point and ignored what's obvious. Hamas doesn't want Israel to exist and is at war with them and they smuggled weapons in the past(how did those rockets show up?). Then you have actors like Turkey and Iran adding to the brew.

What's wrong with South Korea doing and investigation with the international community? You're trying to flip it and make Israel "like North Korea" which doesn't pass muster. SOUTH KOREA will do an investigation with or without the international community. North Korea knows what it did. The only way you can believe Israel is like the position of North Korea is if you think that Flotilla was totally benign which video evidence has already proven false.

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

You totally missed his point and ignored what's obvious. Hamas doesn't want Israel to exist and is at war with them and they smuggled weapons in the past(how did those rockets show up?). Then you have actors like Turkey and Iran adding to the brew.

What's wrong with South Korea doing and investigation with the international community? You're trying to flip it and make Israel "like North Korea" which doesn't pass muster. SOUTH KOREA will do an investigation with or without the international community. North Korea knows what it did. The only way you can believe Israel is like the position of North Korea is if you think that Flotilla was totally benign which video evidence has already proven false.

The rockets are home made, I could pretty much make one with crap in my shed. That's not to say they aren't deadly but don't kid yourself they aren't smuggling in IBCM's. There's no real way to stop the material used to build them without putting terrible restrictions on common materials as Israel has done. The point about the investigation is when you let the aggressor do the investigation, and especially when you let the IDF do the investigation what do you think the result is going to be. South Korea was the victim of an attack and had every right to figure out what went wrong, Israel boarded a Turkish ship in international waters with sketchy at best legal justification, it's the Turks which should run any investigation.

And nice of you to put Turkey in with Iran. Turkey for all it's human rights violations and terrible actions towards the Kurds, it's a far better friend to the US than Israel has ever been, the Turks actually tend to do what US asks and not the other way around. With out Turkish support the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan would be unsustainable.

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

You totally missed his point and ignored what's obvious. Hamas doesn't want Israel to exist and is at war with them and they smuggled weapons in the past(how did those rockets show up?). Then you have actors like Turkey and Iran adding to the brew.

What's wrong with South Korea doing and investigation with the international community? You're trying to flip it and make Israel "like North Korea" which doesn't pass muster. SOUTH KOREA will do an investigation with or without the international community. North Korea knows what it did. The only way you can believe Israel is like the position of North Korea is if you think that Flotilla was totally benign which video evidence has already proven false.

And what about Israel. Everyone talks about how the Hamas don't what Israel to exist but no one ever seems to mention the Likud charter says the exact same thing about Palestine.

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs

Prettier and more temperate language to be sure but one that rules out the existence of a sovereign Palestinian state just as much as Hamas rules out the viability of Israel. Why should only Israel have the right to exist where is the Palestinian right to exist as a sovereign state? You've got to love the folks the sit back and act like Israel is an innocent party to all this, there's plenty of shite on both sides. The idea that the Palestinian's are simply murderous scum intent on the destruction of poor innocent Israel is simply racist.

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by popshopper

The rockets are home made, I could pretty much make one with crap in my shed. That's not to say they aren't deadly but don't kid yourself they aren't smuggling in IBCM's. There's no real way to stop the material used to build them without putting terrible restrictions on common materials as Israel has done. The point about the investigation is when you let the aggressor do the investigation, and especially when you let the IDF do the investigation what do you think the result is going to be. South Korea was the victim of an attack and had every right to figure out what went wrong, Israel boarded a Turkish ship in international waters with sketchy at best legal justification, it's the Turks which should run any investigation.

Obviously Israel is going to do an investigation. Who's going to stop them? The Israeli government is responsible to their citizens and they will demand an investigation. The international community will want to be a part of it and they will be more independent than Turkey. That fact that you look at Israel as the aggressor and not the Turkish flotilla full of martyrdom activists who knowingly put their passengers in harms way (isn't that the point of martyrdom?) means you will have a large mountain to climb to convince people to come around to your point of view. BTW we do know that weapons have been smuggled in underground tunnels from Egypt in the past before they were shutdown. I also don't think they are all home made. We also know that Iran would like to bring in more deadly weapons than cheap rockets. Israel doesn't want a scientific test where they open up borders and let these activists do whatever at the expense of Israeli citizens. Not only is that political suicide it actually is literal suicide.

Even little rockets slamming into my neighborhood would piss me off to no end.

Originally Posted by popshopper

And nice of you to put Turkey in with Iran. Turkey for all it's human rights violations and terrible actions towards the Kurds, it's a far better friend to the US than Israel has ever been, the Turks actually tend to do what US asks and not the other way around. With out Turkish support the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan would be unsustainable.

If the government in Turkey is anti the blockade then they may as well be with Iran. There is concern that Turkey is becoming more radical. The blockade is there for a reason.

BBC News - Israelis 'seize Iran arms ship'

The exact route of the ship has not been confirmed but Israel's Haaretz newspaper said it originated in Iran and had docked in Yemen and Sudan before using the Suez Canal.

A United Feeder Services source told news agencies the ship was scheduled to dock in Lebanon.

The Israeli military said an Iranian document had been found on the ship.

A military spokesperson said: "All the cargo certificates are stamped at the ports of origin and this one was stamped at an Iranian port."

However, in a news conference in Tehran broadcast on Iran's state-run Press TV, visiting Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Muallem said the ship was not carrying Iranian-made weapons and that the cargo comprised Syrian exports to Iran.

Mr Netanyahu congratulated the army, navy and security forces on a successful action to prevent the supply of weapons.

Since Israel's offensive in Gaza last December and January, the Israeli navy and air force have been conducting intense searches in the Mediterranean and the Red Sea for ships smuggling weapons either to Hezbollah or to Hamas in Gaza.

In February Israel said a vessel detained off Cyprus was carrying Iranian weapons to Hamas in Gaza. Iran denied the claim.

In 2002 the Israeli navy captured the Karin-A, which was carrying some 50 tonnes of arms thought to be destined for Gaza.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by anitram

I say this with absolute seriousness and then I will no longer discuss this with you in any manner: people, and specifically, Americans, with a view like yours, are one of the more significant reasons why peace will not come to this region.

A two-state solution has been endorsed by essentially everyone except individuals such as yourself, ultra right-wing militant Israeli groups and various Islamist terrorist factions.

Thanks for your efforts, heckuva job.

Hold on there. The only relevant party that has actually ACCEPTED A TWO STATE PLAN or agreement is in fact ISRAEL. The Palestinians have rejected every two state peace plan since 1948.

[popshopper]

If the government in Turkey is anti the blockade then they may as well be with Iran. There is concern that Turkey is becoming more radical. The blockade is there for a reason

Israel is not the be all and end of all of US foreign policy. Turkey is the leading American ally in the region militarily (far far moreso than Israel) and their position on an blockade which the majority of country in the world are against is neither here or there. While Turkey has been moving toward reclaim its position in Middle Eastern affairs and is perhaps moving from secularist position to an Islamic position it still remains the US's greatest ally in the region.

The blockade legality depends on whether or not there is an International Armed Conflict between Gaza and Israel. There either is or there isn't, up until this week Israel has said there hasn't been because if there is then there are in de facto occupation of Gaza and are failing to meet their obligations to the civilian population. Not supporting an illegal blockage is hardly cause for putting them in with Iran.

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Hold on there. The only relevant party that has actually ACCEPTED A TWO STATE PLAN or agreement is in fact ISRAEL. The Palestinians have rejected every two state peace plan since 1948.

It's not a two state plan. It's Israel and a sort of semi state (without control of airspace, immigration, security, and sea) with around 46% of the land per the 1967 borders, you may as well give the Palestinians someone's back garden.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i find it so ironic that conservative Christians -- generally, US Christians -- after kicking the shit out of the Jews for, like, 1000 years or whatever, are now all reverent about "the Jewish people."

i'd like to think it's just Rapture silliness and they're thrilled about these prophesied temple building skills, but i think it's more because they get some sort of sexual charge whenever anyone shoots a Muslim.

Well, US Christians comprise 78% of the US population. Few if any of them get any sort of thrill from someone shooting a muslim or any person for that matter, but it seems we have some people that do get a sexual charge out of claiming that they do, among other silly claims.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

Few if any of them get any sort of thrill from someone shooting a muslim or any person for that matter,

Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhttttt

and none of them are racist either.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by popshopper

The rockets are home made, I could pretty much make one with crap in my shed. That's not to say they aren't deadly but don't kid yourself they aren't smuggling in IBCM's. There's no real way to stop the material used to build them without putting terrible restrictions on common materials as Israel has done. The point about the investigation is when you let the aggressor do the investigation, and especially when you let the IDF do the investigation what do you think the result is going to be. South Korea was the victim of an attack and had every right to figure out what went wrong, Israel boarded a Turkish ship in international waters with sketchy at best legal justification, it's the Turks which should run any investigation.

And nice of you to put Turkey in with Iran. Turkey for all it's human rights violations and terrible actions towards the Kurds, it's a far better friend to the US than Israel has ever been, the Turks actually tend to do what US asks and not the other way around. With out Turkish support the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan would be unsustainable.

Turkey has been a good friend of the United States, but your wildly overstating their importance.

The weapons that Iran has been smuggled into Gaza for decades are certainly not Palestinian homemade.

Israel is simply defending its citizens and being falsley accused as an aggressor for doing so.

If the ship has nothing to hide and is headed for Gaza, let the Israeli's peacefully inspect and then move on. But no, some people want to smuggle things in, or start a fight.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by popshopper

And what about Israel. Everyone talks about how the Hamas don't what Israel to exist but no one ever seems to mention the Likud charter says the exact same thing about Palestine.



Prettier and more temperate language to be sure but one that rules out the existence of a sovereign Palestinian state just as much as Hamas rules out the viability of Israel. Why should only Israel have the right to exist where is the Palestinian right to exist as a sovereign state? You've got to love the folks the sit back and act like Israel is an innocent party to all this, there's plenty of shite on both sides. The idea that the Palestinian's are simply murderous scum intent on the destruction of poor innocent Israel is simply racist.

FACT: Israel has accepted multiple peace plans in the past that would give the Palestinians a sovereign state. Unfortunately, the Palestinians said NO.

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by popshopper

It's not a two state plan. It's Israel and a sort of semi state (without control of airspace, immigration, security, and sea) with around 46% of the land per the 1967 borders, you may as well give the Palestinians someone's back garden.

The plan in 1948 gave the Palestinians their own state and HALF of all the land in the area called Israel/Palestine. But, the Palestinians rejected the plan and along with 5 Arab countries brutally attacked Israel.

The peace plan in the 1990s gave the Palestinians 95% of what they wanted which was a return to the 1967 borders. But again, the Palestinians rejected it.

So we have the palestinians on record rejecting peace plans, while Israel has accepted several. Israel has a diverse society and the majority of the population is against terrorism. The majority the palestinian population supports terrorism and the palestinian population is almost devoid of any non-violent movement.

So for 62 years the Palestinians have supported terrorism and look at where that has got them. Has it resulted in an independent Palestinian state? Nope.

Why not end the failed policies of terrorism and adopt a non-violent movement and the next time your offered a deal that gives you 95% of what you want it, ACCEPT IT!

[Strongbow]

Originally Posted by BVS

Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhttttt

and none of them are racist either.

Ok, there are roughly 242 million christians in the United States. What percentage of them do you think get sexual pleasure from the killing of people who are simply muslim in their religious faith? What percentage of them go around attempting to kill the 7 million muslims who live in the United States?

Please list your sources.

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

FACT: Israel has accepted multiple peace plans in the past that would give the Palestinians a sovereign state. Unfortunately, the Palestinians said NO.

No they haven't. Certainly not since 1967. There is nothing sovereign about a patchwork state which has no control of immigration, security, it's airspace or it's coast. Nothing at all, I suppose you could call it a state if you want but nothing sovereign about it.

[popshopper]

Originally Posted by Strongbow

The plan in 1948 gave the Palestinians their own state and HALF of all the land in the area called Israel/Palestine. But, the Palestinians rejected the plan and along with 5 Arab countries brutally attacked Israel.

The peace plan in the 1990s gave the Palestinians 95% of what they wanted which was a return to the 1967 borders. But again, the Palestinians rejected it.

So we have the palestinians on record rejecting peace plans, while Israel has accepted several. Israel has a diverse society and the majority of the population is against terrorism. The majority the palestinian population supports terrorism and the palestinian population is almost devoid of any non-violent movement.

So for 62 years the Palestinians have supported terrorism and look at where that has got them. Has it resulted in an independent Palestinian state? Nope.

Why not end the failed policies of terrorism and adopt a non-violent movement and the next time your offered a deal that gives you 95% of what you want it, ACCEPT IT!

I assume you were talking about the Camp David talks. The 96% percent figure was 96% percent of what the Israeli's were willing to negotiate upon, not 96% of what the Palestinians wanted (the pre 1967 borders), the camp David offer was actually would have ceded control of only about 46% of the pre 1967 figures back to Palestinian control. But hey continue spouting the Israeli PR line, it might work on someone who you know can't read.

Barak shares blame for Camp David failure, says Clinton aide - Middle East, World - The Independent