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Old 12-09-2012, 11:17 AM   #581
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I'm sorry, AchtungBono, but I would much rather watch or read an op-ed that justifies Israel's illegal settlements that is done from a less biased point of view. Of course the Israeli Foreign Minister is going to defend the West Bank settlements, he's part of the government that encourages it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:36 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
I'm sorry, AchtungBono, but I would much rather watch or read an op-ed that justifies Israel's illegal settlements that is done from a less biased point of view. Of course the Israeli Foreign Minister is going to defend the West Bank settlements, he's part of the government that encourages it.
Hello Pearl,

Fair enough.....here you are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...li_settlements

And....

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Old 12-09-2012, 01:51 PM   #583
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How is that helpful? Linking to a wikipedia page that tells us that the international community (which by the way includes your staunchest ally, the US) believes that the settlements are illegal but Israel thinks that they are not. Shocking.

It is plainly obvious to anybody looking from the outside in that there cannot be peace there. You don't even think that building those settlements is illegal - so long as you continue to hold this view, there WILL BE NO PEACE. You can blame Hamas and terrorist organizations all you want, but without recognition that Israel is 100% in the wrong with respect to settlements, you can continue to live with terror for the rest of your and your children's lives. It is an absolutely insane proposition that you are choosing.

And then the only thing that you'll get will be a one-state solution where the Arab/Palestinian population will outnumber you, at first by a little and then will completely overwhelm you.

This is what you are choosing by being obstinate on the settlements question. Frankly, it's a large part of the reason why I think the west should completely wash their hands of Israel/Palestine and move on. You guys down there are not willing to be reasonable and compromise and yes that is BOTH of you, so why should we continue to be held hostage to your petty regional squabble?

Unbelievable, really.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:20 PM   #584
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How is that helpful? Linking to a wikipedia page that tells us that the international community (which by the way includes your staunchest ally, the US) believes that the settlements are illegal but Israel thinks that they are not. Shocking.
Well Anitram, since I come off as being biased, I linked to that page because it wasn't written by anyone on the Israeli side and it could give an even perspective - is that still not good? What would you be willing to read or listen to?

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It is plainly obvious to anybody looking from the outside in that there cannot be peace there. You don't even think that building those settlements is illegal - so long as you continue to hold this view, there WILL BE NO PEACE. You can blame Hamas and terrorist organizations all you want, but without recognition that Israel is 100% in the wrong with respect to settlements, you can continue to live with terror for the rest of your and your children's lives. It is an absolutely insane proposition that you are choosing.
I must respectfully disagree with you here. There will never be peace for one simple reason - the current Palestinian leadership does not want to sit down with us and they insist on making unilateral moves such as the silly vote in the U.N creating a virtual state (which is in clear violation of the Oslo accords which they co-signed).

Anitram, I mean no disrespect to you but you cannot presume to know what it's like for us to be surrounded by enemies who are hell-bent on our destruction. It's the same as having Hamas ruling Canada and Al-Quaida ruling Mexico. We just cannot just pack up and leave the West Bank and the settlements without reaching an agreement with whoever is supposed to take charge of those areas after that. We already made that mistake before when we uprooted thousands of citizens and withdrew unilaterally from the Gaza strip in 2005 - bringing the Hamas missiles closer to our cities. We will NOT be making that mistake again. Israel has shown that it is willing to make painful decisions but we will not put our necks in the noose, which is what would happen if we gave up the West Bank without an agreement.

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And then the only thing that you'll get will be a one-state solution where the Arab/Palestinian population will outnumber you, at first by a little and then will completely overwhelm you.

This is what you are choosing by being obstinate on the settlements question. Frankly, it's a large part of the reason why I think the west should completely wash their hands of Israel/Palestine and move on. You guys down there are not willing to be reasonable and compromise and yes that is BOTH of you, so why should we continue to be held hostage to your petty regional squabble?

Unbelievable, really.
Actually Anitram that is not entirely true that we're not willing to be reasonable and compromise, Since the Oslo accords were signed in 1993, Israel has relinquished control of a very large part of the West Bank and in 2000 our then prime minister Ehud Barak made Yassar Arafat an offer that we thought he couldn't refuse - to give back 93% of the territory and to just hold on to a small percentage which would act as a buffer between the West Bank and our central cities. But Arafat said no.....so who exactly was unreasonable here? And if you look back and research the peace process, you'll see that it has been Israel who has made most (if not all) of the concessions with the Palestinians giving nothing in return.

So you tell me, what can I say to you to help you understand our point of view?
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:19 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
Well Anitram, since I come off as being biased, I linked to that page because it wasn't written by anyone on the Israeli side and it could give an even perspective - is that still not good? What would you be willing to read or listen to?
I think what she was referring to was the fact that you apparently didn't notice that the wikipedia article you linked to says that pretty much the entire international community thinks Israel is wrong to continue building settlements.

Quote:
I must respectfully disagree with you here. There will never be peace for one simple reason - the current Palestinian leadership does not want to sit down with us and they insist on making unilateral moves such as the silly vote in the U.N creating a virtual state (which is in clear violation of the Oslo accords which they co-signed).
Question: How does continuing to build settlements encourage the Palestinians to take Israel's stated wishes for peace seriously?
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:48 PM   #586
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Anitram, I mean no disrespect to you but you cannot presume to know what it's like for us to be surrounded by enemies who are hell-bent on our destruction. It's the same as having Hamas ruling Canada and Al-Quaida ruling Mexico.
Do you think that Israel has any responsibility for creating the situation on the ground? Do you think that the Palestinians are born terrorists due to something in their genes or do environmental factors, such as being exploited by their piss poor leadership AND being forced to live in bantustans by Israel which helps create the reaction in them? It seems like pretty simple human nature and I am pretty sure that if you put in Americans into a similar situation, or Canadians or the Dutch, you would see essentially the same thing develop.

I cannot understand your point of view because you do not recognize that the settlement building is illegal. There is really no starting point to a discussion without that realization by you. Much like there is no starting point to the discussion without the Palestinians recognizing, both internally and publicly that Israel is a country which exists, which must continue to exist with peace within its borders.

You cannot control the Palestinian response or formal position, but you can control your own. And right now you are not willing to recognize the illegality of settlements. For me, that means the peace process is dead. I have little doubt that most of us who have no horse in this race feel the same.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:03 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Frankly, it's a large part of the reason why I think the west should completely wash their hands of Israel/Palestine and move on. You guys down there are not willing to be reasonable and compromise and yes that is BOTH of you, so why should we continue to be held hostage to your petty regional squabble?
This is pretty much how I'm feeling.

Nice posts in general here, anitram.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:14 PM   #588
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we can solve this pretty easy, let's just be neutral and fair.

the USA should follow our European and NATO partners and start abstaining at the UN.
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