Roadmap to HELL - One man caught on a barbed wire fence ....

[deep]

it becomes harder and harder to be 100% align with the Israeli government and all the people that have migrated there over the last 5-6 decades

the Israeli population is comprised of many millions of non-middle eastern people, these people are former Americans, both North and South, European and Soviet peoples. They have migrated to this part of the middle east called many things; Palestine, Israel, West Bank, Gaza, Holy Land, Judea and Samaria.

So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.

What is the rational for saying Israel has no fault in this situation?

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by deep

So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.

The thing here is that many of these "migrants" truly believe they are in their ancestral homeland and they are really indigenous to Israel. So they think they have a right to move in.

[deep]

that really is not true, it is a false premise that some 'religious minded' people put out there

but it is not only a false premise, but also false in practice.

a person could be a full blooded Swede, able to trace his ancestry back 1000s of years in Europe. If he chose to convert to Judaism he could and would be granted a full Israeli citizenship with full privileges over a person that was born what is called Israel, if that person is not Jewish.
He/she could trace their ancestry back to the time of Jesus, and have lived on that same land continuously.
Again, how can anyone make a rational argument for non-citizenship in one's ancestral homeland oven a non middle
easterner, European being given full citizenship.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by deep

that really is not true, it is a false premise that some 'religious minded' people put out there

but it is not only a false premise, but also false in practice.

a person could be a full blooded Swede, able to trace his ancestry back 1000s of years in Europe. If he chose to convert to Judaism he could and would be granted a full Israeli citizenship with full privileges over a person that was born what is called Israel, if that person is not Jewish.
He/she could trace their ancestry back to the time of Jesus, and have lived on that same land continuously.
Again, how can anyone make a rational argument for non-citizenship in one's ancestral homeland oven a non middle
easterner, European being given full citizenship.

I was simply pointing how many justify going to Israel and settling in areas they are not supposed to settle in, according to international law.

[deep]

ok, fair enough

I am familiar with the argument, I was raised with believers, with the concepts of 'chosen people', Israel being restored in the 'last days', the temple being rebuilt, these were things I learned as a young child and I believed they were the right things to be happening, all on the foundation of our religious beliefs.

Once, I started letting go of religion influencing my beliefs, I went to the concept of is this the 'the right' or 'most' right thing to do. Why should one sides religious arguments have more sway than the other side? Should religious arguments have influence in taking territory away from one group and giving it to another?

I try and be aware of what all sides are saying.
In the end I can only say what I believe are more credible and legitimate arguments.

And sadly sometimes there is not an ideal outcome, or even a better outcome, only less bad ones.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by deep

Once, I started letting go of religion influencing my beliefs, I went to the concept of is this the 'the right' or 'most' right thing to do. Why should one sides religious arguments have more sway than the other side?

[AchtungBono]

Hello everyone,

First of all, thank you very much for your good wishes. It is truly a horrible situation that we keep experiencing due to the fact that I have a terrorist organization ruling an area that is slightly two hours away from my house.....

Your moral support is appreciated.


Elaine

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by anitram

I hope that you stay safe, AchtungBono, as well as your family and friends. I imagine everyone must be really tired and frustrated of this situation dragging on for years, and actually decades.

But the above analogy is poor because it isn't as if the US is occupying the Yucatan peninsula or some other part of the contiguous Mexican state or expanding its cities in southern Texas across the border and then annexing large parts of the land around them.

In no way am I suggesting that the latest militant behaviour by Hamas is acceptable, but this is not a simple conflict that has clear lines of delineation like what you suggest with NYC above.

Hello Anitram,

If you're inferring to our supposed occupation of Gaza, that's a poor argument because we've been out of Gaza since 2005 when we unilaterally left the Gaza strip, lock stock and barrel. We left the area without reaching any agreement with anyone and being as naive as I am I thought that the Palestinians would use the vacated territories to build homes and help get their people out of the refugee camps so to better their lives......silly me.

Instead, the terrorist organizations used the empty land to move their rockets closer to our towns and intensify their shelling which they've been doing since 2000.

So my analogy is quite appropriate.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

So my analogy is quite appropriate.

No it is not.

The USA is not placing Mexico under a naval and ground blockade, does not control its borders or in any other way, does not control its airspace, does not control its imports/exports, does not control whether Mexicans from the the state of Yucatan can travel to the state of Chihuahua, etc. It is a completely different situation and a nonsensical analogy.

[PhilsFan]

Forgive me (and others) if I don't think an Israeli has the most objective outlook on the situation there.

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by deep

it becomes harder and harder to be 100% align with the Israeli government and all the people that have migrated there over the last 5-6 decades

the Israeli population is comprised of many millions of non-middle eastern people, these people are former Americans, both North and South, European and Soviet peoples. They have migrated to this part of the middle east called many things; Palestine, Israel, West Bank, Gaza, Holy Land, Judea and Samaria.

So what we have is many millions of non-indigenous recent migrants holding land and dictating to millions of people that have lived on this land for hundreds of years.

What is the rational for saying Israel has no fault in this situation?

Hello Deep,

Actually, there has always been a Jewish presence in the holyland since biblical times when the Israelites came out of bondage in Egypt and came to the land of Canaan (as the land was known then) which was promised to them by G-d.

The Jewish presence continued until the destruction of the holy temple in Jerusalem and the Jews were driven out of the land by the Romans.

Throughout the centuries, the Jewish people have always aspired to return to the ancient homeland which had undergone occupation by foreign forces - the Greeks, the Romans, the Turks and the British.

Here is a short 30 minute documentary which will give you the history of the land and the state. This would be able to explain my point better than I can and hopefully you will have a better understanding.

Understanding the History of Israel Part 1 - YouTube

Understanding the History of Israel Part 2 - YouTube

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

Forgive me (and others) if I don't think an Israeli has the most objective outlook on the situation there.

What do you mean?
I live here, I'm the one enduring missile attacks, I'm the one who's living in a land surrounded by hostile neighbors who want me wiped off the face of the earth.

How does that negate my opinion just because I'm Israeli? Quite the opposite, BECAUSE I'm an Israeli I am more qualified to speak my opinion because I know the actual facts on the ground whereas you and the world only get the distorted version.

That being said, I do respect your opinion and everybody elses.

[AchtungBono]

Originally Posted by anitram

No it is not.

The USA is not placing Mexico under a naval and ground blockade, does not control its borders or in any other way, does not control its airspace, does not control its imports/exports, does not control whether Mexicans from the the state of Yucatan can travel to the state of Chihuahua, etc. It is a completely different situation and a nonsensical analogy.

Well, the USA is lucky that Mexico isn't its sworn enemy and doesn't receive arms from other nations who don't like the USA and want it destroyed.

The naval and ground blockade imposed on Gaza is to prevent arms from reaching the terrorists and for no other reason. Humanitarian aid is passing through the borders freely and without hindrance.

[Pearl]

This is disturbing:

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a large mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.
Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!"
The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites.

Hamas Kills 6 Suspected Israel Collaborators: Witnesses (GRAPHIC PHOTO)

If the Palestinians weren't so barbaric like this, they would get more global support. Why couldn't they just hold these alleged spies hostage instead of immediately killing them and causing global outrage?

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

What do you mean?
I live here, I'm the one enduring missile attacks, I'm the one who's living in a land surrounded by hostile neighbors who want me wiped off the face of the earth.

How does that negate my opinion just because I'm Israeli? Quite the opposite, BECAUSE I'm an Israeli I am more qualified to speak my opinion because I know the actual facts on the ground whereas you and the world only get the distorted version.

That being said, I do respect your opinion and everybody elses.

It doesn't negate your opinion at all. But it certainly distorts it.

And you think I'm getting a distorted version? You're right. In the US, we do get a distorted version: a very, very pro-Israel version. So don't think I'm of this opinion because I'm hearing all this pro-Palestine talk in the US. We don't hear that. We hear your side and your side only. Which is probably what you hear as well.

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by AchtungBono

How does that negate my opinion just because I'm Israeli? Quite the opposite, BECAUSE I'm an Israeli I am more qualified to speak my opinion because I know the actual facts on the ground whereas you and the world only get the distorted version.

You mean in the same way that you make comments about American life and politics based on a distorted version you get from Fox News?

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by Pearl

This is disturbing:



Hamas Kills 6 Suspected Israel Collaborators: Witnesses (GRAPHIC PHOTO)

If the Palestinians weren't so barbaric like this, they would get more global support. Why couldn't they just hold these alleged spies hostage instead of immediately killing them and causing global outrage?

Here you go generalizing again. I know you don't mean to, but you need to choose your words carefully. A distinction needs to be made between Hamas and everyday Palestinians who want a peaceful outcome to the regional crisis.

[deep]

you do realize they are not Israelis, but Palestinians that were collaborating with the IDF to guide bombs to targets, residential buildings that may have a Hamas official in it.

if they were Israelis they would have been held for negotiations, the Israelis could give a damn about them, they were just paid informants.




and as for the 'global outrage' it is and has been trending against Israel and the IDF for years, it is like gay marriage, a slow but steady move in one direction.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BoMac

Here you go generalizing again. I know you don't mean to, but you need to choose your words carefully. A distinction needs to be made between Hamas and everyday Palestinians who want a peaceful outcome to the regional crisis.

Yeah I don't mean to, so calm down.

[BoMac]

I am calm.