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Old 06-01-2010, 08:49 AM   #21
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It's obvious that the intentions weren’t completely pure & humanitarian. I also agree that double standards do exist. Yes, Hamas is a murderous organization; its drive is not even national but religious. All you have to do is look at their covenant and see the paragraphs that blame the Jews for everything that's wrong with the world and the ones that mention the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a legitimate document.

In spite all of this, try for just one time to let go of need to justify every act our country does. This could've been handled very differently. You don't have to play the spokesman; you're not paid for it. Quite frankly, the people you're so keen to defend couldn't care less about you (especially Ehud Barak). Despite what you may think, they don't know how to get out of this situation. They're fighting a war they cannot win, and treating a very complicated conflict as if they're planning another military operation like they did most of their lives.
Shalom Sarit - I agree with you that this operation could have been executed differently and I'm positive that the right conclusions will be reached for the next time - which will be in about two days when two more ships are due to arrive. I may have reservations about the execution of the operation - especially about the tragic loss of life - but I completely justify the action itself.

As for Ehud Barak not caring for me....well, that's life - he may not care about me but I DO care about my country and the way it is always portrayed as the bad guy of the world, without justification. And I don't post these messages as a representative of the Israeli government, but rather as a regular woman who is tired of seeing her country used as a punching bag over and over again for doing what any other civilized country would have done in its place.
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:46 AM   #22
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Dear Friends,

Let me ask you a few questions.....when the U.S.A went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan did you hear a PEEP out of Israel? NO
A few things:

1. What does this have to do with anything?
2. Why would we hear a peep out of Israel when it was happy that the US was doing this?
3. Israel has no right to issue a PEEP since it's sucking at the teat of America at a GREAT COST to the American taxpayer, the American soldiers and in general, the loss of goodwill towards America in the Muslim world.
4. Despite #3 above, Israel continues to slap America in the face, as Joe Biden most recently experienced firsthand.

If you are happy to live in an apartheid state with bantustans, that is your business. Don't be shocked if some of the rest of us happen to find it distasteful.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:11 AM   #23
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good luck getting sanctions on Iran now.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:16 AM   #24
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A few things:

1. What does this have to do with anything?
2. Why would we hear a peep out of Israel when it was happy that the US was doing this?
3. Israel has no right to issue a PEEP since it's sucking at the teat of America at a GREAT COST to the American taxpayer, the American soldiers and in general, the loss of goodwill towards America in the Muslim world.
4. Despite #3 above, Israel continues to slap America in the face, as Joe Biden most recently experienced firsthand.

If you are happy to live in an apartheid state with bantustans, that is your business. Don't be shocked if some of the rest of us happen to find it distasteful.
Hello Anitram,

1. Of course it does - America's actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are wars fought for America's defense - as was this action. We were defending our border against illegal infiltration.

2. The point is - we don't go poking our noses into other people's business. It doesn't matter if we agreed or not - how America fights its war against terrorists is nobody's business but America's - and good for America!!!

3. So what you're saying is that if Israel didn't exist all the Muslims would be rushing into America's brotherly embrace, right? We're the only ones standing in the way of a perfect union between the Arab nations and the "great Satan"?
And what cost to the American soldiers exactly? If I recall correctly, in 62 years of statehood, not ONE American soldier fought in any of the wars forced upon us...so what do you mean?
It is true that Israel receives aid from the U.S. as do many other nations in the world - the only difference being that Israel is surrounded by nations that has been seeking its destruction since even before the state was created and our security needs are larger than most countries. The aid that the U.S. gives is not wasted and recipracated in many ways and there is no stronger ally for the United States than Israel.

4. What happened with Joe Biden was blown way out of proportion - we announced a building plan for apartments in Jerusalem...WOW what a tragedy!! imagine!! Israel planning apartments in our own capital city....shocking!! I wonder if there would be the same outcry if Pres. Obama announced a new urban renewal plan in Washington DC.

As for the mantra of the "Apartheid state" - that's a broken record that has been played to death. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and, basically, the only real friend that America has.....

By the way, I mean no disrespect to you or your opinions. I've sparred verbally with you on many occasions and I respect you - as I respect everyone here.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:20 AM   #25
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good luck getting sanctions on Iran now.
What does one have to do with another?

Iran developing nuclear weapons which will ultimately wind up in the hands of terrorists is something the entire world should be afraid of and work against.

Not getting sanctions against Iran because of this will be the world cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Make no mistake - Iran with nuclear weapons threatens you and me and EVERYONE in the world....and they WILL be stopped one way or another.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:20 AM   #26
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does it not make sense tou you, Achtung, that most of Israel's actions -- a wealthy, powerful army financed by the US and part of a powerful economy, especially when compared to the awfulness of the densely populated and absolutely destroyed Gaza -- are viewed as being entirely disproportionate to the actual situation on hand, as this incident seems to exemplify, and that makes it harder for everyone to make any sort of advancement towards a sustainable, peaceful, likely two-state solution? and it also makes it more difficult to rally world opinion against actual, present dangers like the Iranian regime? and that, once again, Israel has played directly into the Hamas playbook and further isolated itself from people who really do want Israel to succeed?

is shooting a gnat with a bazooka really the way to go?
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:22 AM   #27
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What does one have to do with another?

Iran developing nuclear weapons which will ultimately wind up in the hands of terrorists is something the entire world should be afraid of and work against.

Not getting sanctions against Iran because of this will be the world cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Make no mistake - Iran with nuclear weapons threatens you and me and EVERYONE in the world....and they WILL be stopped one way or another.

i agree!

so let's have a proportional response! please! there's so much at stake, and the actions of Bibi's right wing government make it more difficult for anything productive to happen.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:38 AM   #28
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does it not make sense tou you, Achtung, that most of Israel's actions -- a wealthy, powerful army financed by the US and part of a powerful economy, especially when compared to the awfulness of the densely populated and absolutely destroyed Gaza -- are viewed as being entirely disproportionate to the actual situation on hand, as this incident seems to exemplify, and that makes it harder for everyone to make any sort of advancement towards a sustainable, peaceful, likely two-state solution? and it also makes it more difficult to rally world opinion against actual, present dangers like the Iranian regime? and that, once again, Israel has played directly into the Hamas playbook and further isolated itself from people who really do want Israel to succeed?

is shooting a gnat with a bazooka really the way to go?
The problem is that there is more than one gnat - there is an army of gnats with nasty bites - so we need to use the bazooka to get rid of the nest...

But enough metaphors...I'm getting itchy...lol.

Seriously though, this is no laughing matter......
I'm not disputing the fact that Gaza is in ruins and that the Palestinians are suffering horribly. In fact, I'm looking forward to the day when Hamas is driven out of Gaza and the state of Palestine is finally created with a true Palestinian leadership that can lead their people out of the squalor and opression they've been under since Hamas took power. I've said countless times before that peace could have been reached YEARS ago were it not for the stubborness of the other side - but that's another story.

As I said, Israel's actions in this incident were not expected and not planned. The soldiers knew the takeover wouldn't be a pushover but they certainly didn't expect to be met with the level of violence that occured - and again, the soldier's response was defensive and not offensive.
Remember, we didn't go in there with guns blazing - the soldiers only opened fire after being physically attacked.

I believe that the worldwide condemnation of Israel is the natural knee-jerk reaction to any defensive measures we take against our enemies and it doesn't surprise me anymore. Eventually, as more and more facts become known, this condemnation will be replaced with understanding that we are fighting a war and we have every right to defend ourselves against those who try and violate our sovereignty(sp?) by trying to crash our borders illegaly.

I have to leave now, I'll be back tomorrow. Please feel free to ask me any questions and I'll answer them to the best of my ability. In the meantime, check out the link I posted in my original message - the IDF channel on youtube. You will get more information and background.

Thanks everyone for your comments.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:40 AM   #29
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i do find it interesting that both "sides" -- for lack of a better word -- moan about the coverage. seems to me that the world might actually be doing a better job of covering this than we're led to believe by said "sides."
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:10 PM   #30
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how America fights its war against terrorists is nobody's business but America's - and good for America!!!
This makes absolutely no sense.

Just think about that statement for a little while, and apply it to everyone else.
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:27 PM   #31
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2. The point is - we don't go poking our noses into other people's business.
You are benefiting enormously, and more than any other nation in the world from American taxpayer dollars.

If you don't want poking their noses into your business, then turn down the financial and military aid. I am sure that many Americans would be more than happy to use those dollars to build schools and bridges and roads in America instead.

But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:09 PM   #32
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You are benefiting enormously, and more than any other nation in the world from American taxpayer dollars.

If you don't want poking their noses into your business, then turn down the financial and military aid. I am sure that many Americans would be more than happy to use those dollars to build schools and bridges and roads in America instead.

But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
BTW, the aid is not in the form of money just handed to Israel. It's more like vouchers to buy military equipment/general army's products (even army standard socks provided to soldiers) back from the US. So it is aid, but it also helps their industry and sometimes hurts certain populations inside Israel. For example, the IDF used to buy textile merchandise from local manufacturers. Those manufacturers had to shut down when the IDF switched to American merchandise (they could not compete of course with china's textile industry). As a result many middle-aged women, who worked at those factories, with no other skills, went unemployed in areas of the country where no other work is actually available.

This is some interesting info:
U.S. Foreign Aid Summary
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:20 PM   #33
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BTW, the aid is not in the form of money just handed to Israel. It's more like vouchers to buy military equipment/general army's products
This is a fairly recent change; in the past, Israel received billions in direct economic aid as well. In fact, bilateral economic grants only ended in 2008.

Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid between 1948 and today. Without the $ and the political support of the U.S., Israel would be living a very different reality. This directly impacts U.S. taxpayers.

So Achtung's suggestion that America has no right to "poke its nose" in Israel's business is completely absurd, and borderline insulting.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:24 PM   #34
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This is some interesting info:
U.S. Foreign Aid Summary
Good stuff, thanks.

I didn't know Egypt got so much U.S. aid.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:26 PM   #35
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This is a fairly recent change; in the past, Israel received billions in direct economic aid as well. In fact, bilateral economic grants only ended in 2008.

Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid between 1948 and today. Without the $ and the political support of the U.S., Israel would be living a very different reality. This directly impacts U.S. taxpayers.

So Achtung's suggestion that America has no right to "poke its nose" in Israel's business is completely absurd, and borderline insulting.
I was just bringing some info and I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, I highly doubt it that the aid was given out of mere kindness. We get it only because it serves US interests. And maybe this form of dependency isn't that bad for American interests at all.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:39 PM   #36
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Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid between 1948 and today. Without the $ and the political support of the U.S., Israel would be living a very different reality.
Very true.

What would that different reality look like for Israelis?
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:50 PM   #37
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keep in mind
the Egyptian aid is for their cooperation with Israel.


what would Israel look like with out as much aid and consistent U N vetoes by the US?

one side would have you believe that Israel would be wiped off the face of the earth.

I don't buy that argument at all, with less aid and a more measured approach
there is a better chance that a real settlement agreement may have been reached by now.

And most likely more fair to the Palestinians, since Israel would not have been able to keep changing the 'so called' facts on the ground.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:50 PM   #38
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Very true.

What would that different reality look like for Israelis?
You should also consider the less discussed about Arab foreign aid. Mainly Saudi Arabia, second only to the United States in its scope.

We're only the playground for others.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:45 PM   #39
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It's a difficult thing, to fight the terrorists without becoming terrorists in the process. Ask Bush.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:49 PM   #40
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We get it only because it serves US interests. And maybe this form of dependency isn't that bad for American interests at all.

but the present right-wing Israel government, and specifically Netanyahu, is making it increasingly difficult to be in America's best interests.

and that's bad for everybody.
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