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#221 |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
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In 1947, 9% of the land was owned by Jews, 3% by Arabs who became Israeli citizens, and 18% by Arabs who either left before the 1948 war or after. The other 70% of the land was NOT privately owned by anyone. It belonged to the British Mandatory government and prior to that belonged to the government of the Ottoman Empire.
__________________In 1947 the Arab population in Israel/Palestine numbered, 1,200,000. The Jewish figure at the time was 600,000. A combined figure of 1.8 million, much less than the nearly 12 million Jews and Arabs that live in Israel/Palestine today. The Jews never had a chance of reaching a majority in the country given the restrictive immigration policy of the British. By contrast, the Arabs were free to come - and thousands did - to take advantage of the rapid development stimulated by area's owned by Jews. The Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them in the UN Partition Plan of 1947, as well as the majority in Jerusalem that was to be a United Nations run city under the UN Partition Plan. |
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#222 |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Here are some interesting public comments by Arab officials on the issue of peace with Israel in 1947/1948:
__________________"Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world" Syrian delegage, Faris el-Khouri, New York Times, February 19, 1947 "The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede; they fight. You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I'm not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But its too late to talk of peaceful solutions." Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha, September 16, 1947 "All our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine." Transjordan's King Abdullah, April 26, 1948 "The representitives of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arab's had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight" Jamal Husseini before the Security Council, April 16, 1948 "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, May 15, 1948 |
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#223 | |||
Blue Crack Supplier
Join Date: Dec 2003
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here's a thoughtful post that i enjoyed reading, it tackles hard, almost unmentionable questions:
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#224 |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
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you have referred to 1947several times as an example of why Israel exist today or the justification for how and where, Israel exist today.
OK, so going by your example or suggestion, then 1947 should be where we go for the final boundaries. Here you go. ![]() more than generous, since by your information 600,000 Jewish inhabitants and 1200000 Palestinians at that time. lets use the 1947 standard you keep bringing up, and allow Palestinians to control/govern all that territory. Of course Jews can stay and pay rent and live under the same deal Israeli Arabs have enjoyed all these years. |
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#225 | |
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Thank you for that article, Irvine. That's exactly what I've thought before, too-it does seem odd that of all the places in the world to put Israel, we pick an Arab-heavy part. How did people not expect some conflict and complication would arise from that decision?
Also... Quote:
Angela |
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#226 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Israel has already agreed to let the Palestinians have Gaza as well as most of the West Bank. There are a few settlement sticking points plus the status of Jerusalem are the main land area's being contested. |
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#227 |
Refugee
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
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#228 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Quote:
At the end of World War I, the Ottoman Empire collapsed and ceaced to exist. The sudden end of the previous government and state in the area for the past 400 years meant that there would be creation of multiple new states by the people who lived in these area's. That is how Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Kuwait exist today and its also why Israel exist today. Without the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, none of these states would exist today. The Jews living in what is now Israel/Palestine wanted to form their own state as did the citizens of other area's of what used to be the Ottoman Empire. So the idea to form an independent state once the Ottoman Empire collapsed came from Jews already living on their own land in Israel/Palestine. It did not come from the British or the League of Nations searching for an area of the globe to create a new state called Israel. Israel/Palestine was also not "Arab Heavy" or populated heavily at all at the time the Ottoman Empire Collapsed. In 2010, 12 million people live in Israel/West Bank/Gaza. But in 1918, there was only 700,000 people. The majority of the land was not privately owned and empty of any settlements. |
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#229 |
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not that i was asked, but "putting" Israel is beside the point, and seems to beg a question or response that's ready for a smack down.
it's there. period. and the Israelis aren't going anywhere. and no one is going to be pushed into the sea. period. however, i think the point of the post that i posted is that it's impossible to sever present hostilities from history. and while my above sentence is all factual, imho, it's impossible to live without acknowledging the history behind the country's creation, and that understanding Arab resentment and anger is absolutely central to Israel's own self-interest and self-preservation. |
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#230 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in a glass of CheerWine
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Press>>>listen
Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man His enemies say he’s on their land They got him outnumbered about a million to one He got no place to escape to, no place to run He’s the neighborhood bully The neighborhood bully just lives to survive He’s criticized and condemned for being alive He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in He’s the neighborhood bully The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land He’s wandered the earth an exiled man Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn He’s always on trial for just being born He’s the neighborhood bully Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized Old women condemned him, said he should apologize. Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad He’s the neighborhood bully Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him ’Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac He’s the neighborhood bully He got no allies to really speak of What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side He’s the neighborhood bully Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep He’s the neighborhood bully Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand In bed with nobody, under no one’s command He’s the neighborhood bully Now his holiest books have been trampled upon No contract he signed was worth what it was written on He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health He’s the neighborhood bully What’s anybody indebted to him for? Nothin’, they say. He just likes to cause war Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed He’s the neighborhood bully What has he done to wear so many scars? Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars? Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill Running out the clock, time standing still Neighborhood bully ~Bob Dylan |
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#231 | |||||||||
Refugee
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Why would he deny the Jews who had been born in Israel/Palestine the right to form their own state, but give that right to every other ethnic group or nationality that was until just recently apart of the Ottoman Empire? Quote:
There were Jews living in this area before Jewish immigration from Europe started around 1880. While the Ottoman Empire were not going to allow the formation of an independent state on their territory, for decades they allowed Jews from Europe to immigrate to the area and settle, develop and privately own land. So with the approval of the Ottoman Empire, the number of Jews living in what would become Israel/Palestine started to rapidly grow. The Ottomans were not opposed because the Jewish settlements were good for the economic development of the area. So in the 1880s, Jews from Europe started to settle in the area and the first native born Jews of recent European descent were born. By 1918 and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there were tens of thousands of Jews living in the area that were native born. Quote:
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Finally, it was the Jews who accepted the UN partition peace plan, and the Palestinians and other Arab countries that rejected it and then brutally invaded Israel in an attempt to destroy the state in 1948. It is the Palestinians and the Arabs that are responsible for the consequences of the 1948 war. They were offered peace, an independent state, and rejected the offer and tried to destroy Israel. Quote:
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#232 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
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#233 |
Blue Crack Supplier
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I've seen propaganda, the Bible, and Bob Dylan quoted as historical fact in here...
I'm a big fan of two, but none are historical fact. It's kinda like America, our country is only a little over 200 years old and no one quite has the history right... |
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#234 |
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#235 |
Blue Crack Addict
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I wasn't trying to imply it should be anywhere else. I honestly don't know where else would be a good place to put Israel, and don't really care, 'cause as Irvine said, Israel's there, it's always going to be there, and that's that, and hooray for that, I'm certainly no advocate of suddenly up and moving that country now after all this time. I was simply agreeing that it is an odd spot for them to plant a country, that's all I meant. If they want to put Israel there, fine, go for it. It's just strange, the fact that people on both sides are so surprised at the reaction that came from that decision. Perhaps they weren't expecting it to get as violent and lengthy as it became, though, I dunno.
Angela |
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#236 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS Join Date: Jul 2005
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You implied that her earlier comments were in the same league of her most recent ones, and made it out to be that any criticism of Israel's action from the left equalled anti-Semitism or anti-Israelism.
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#237 | |
Refugee
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Quote:
Does it ever occur to anyone that the terms of the "offer" (then or more recently) may not have been legitimate or balanced? That the conditions of peace and an "independent" state of Palestine are on the unlilateral terms of Israel and in effect may actually require complete submission and dependence from Palestinians? |
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#238 | |
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#239 |
Refugee
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Israel's right to exist is not based on propaganda, the Bible, or Bob Dylan, but the events that happened after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. Its absurd and ignorant for Andrew Sullivan to be questioning the existence of Israel or declaring it a mistake. How can one consider it lawful and right for all of the citizens of the former Ottoman Empire to have the right to form states of their own, but deny that right to Jews?
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#240 | |
Refugee
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