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Old 09-18-2015, 11:52 PM   #21
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Not us, though, Martina. We just bombed Syria, so that should fix everything.
I hear that if you stop the boats, everybody's problems magically go away.
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Old 09-19-2015, 12:15 AM   #22
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Japan is also structurally very anti-immigrant and has been that way forever, so the odds of integration and normal life in that society are very low. Kind of strange to even be invoking them to be honest.
I was just waiting for the liberation in my country, that's all. it's true that some people are really desperate to contain the situation
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:06 AM   #23
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seriously, Hungary ought to be kicked out of the EU for its disgusting response
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:15 AM   #24
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And the ones that will suffer will be the actual refugees. By dangling that open borders/free for all carrot, they have created an unimaginable chaos. This is exactly why it's so important to make that distinction of refugee and migrant.




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"dangling the open borders/free for all carrot" is a little trite...

humans have been on the move since time began, influx of refugees is a result of war and instability...

one of the main factors in this crisis is the criminalization of migration brought in by the 2001 EU directive penalizing carriers

EUR-Lex - l33139 - EN - EUR-Lex

this immediately led to the original smuggler/sea-crossing problem - i have seen documentary footage of coastguards on the Med shooting at migrant boats from more than 10 years ago, before the media finally caught up with the story...

basically, re. refugees, it's our moral duty to help - there needs to be a global response, by the EU, other countries AND the middle east

"love your neighbour as you love yourself" has never been so appropriate
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:20 AM   #25
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I think Germany will eventually accept more refugees, just not at the current rate - for demographic reasons alone. They have the world's lowest fertility rate and the 2nd highest median age - 46 (versus 38 in the US).
i read that Germany actually needs an additional workforce of 450 000 per year to sustain itself - skilled refugees will be a huge asset to the economy
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:23 AM   #26
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seriously, Hungary ought to be kicked out of the EU for its disgusting response
I'm not sure about getting kicked out of the EU (not that I have a high opinion of it anyway), but any progressively minded person should be concerned about the current Hungarian regime - and I'm not just talking about their stance on the refugee crisis alone.
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:13 AM   #27
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I'm not sure about getting kicked out of the EU (not that I have a high opinion of it anyway), but any progressively minded person should be concerned about the current Hungarian regime - and I'm not just talking about their stance on the refugee crisis alone.
very true Vlad
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Old 09-19-2015, 12:28 PM   #28
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If Germany wants them they should just send a fleet of Lufthansa planes to Izmir, Turkey and airlift them. Same goes for other countries.


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Old 09-19-2015, 03:35 PM   #29
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$64,000 question - I'll be in Germany for two eeeks, culminating in the 2 shows in Cologne. Is there something I can do to help out while there?

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Old 09-19-2015, 03:35 PM   #30
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If Germany wants them they should just send a fleet of Lufthansa planes to Izmir, Turkey and airlift them. Same goes for other countries.
This is sort of the point, isn't it?

Germany and Sweden in particular have been openly inviting hundreds of thousands of people but have done nothing to actually assist them in getting there. The burden has instead been placed on nations which are small, poor and in many instances recently wartorn themselves.

And let's not kid ourselves, if there were 200,000 people, of which are mostly young men who happen to be Muslim, passing through the US or Canada or the UK or Australia this summer largely without documentation, imagine what the response would be. Instead we can all sit on our high horse in judgment.
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Old 09-19-2015, 03:36 PM   #31
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*weeks

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Old 09-19-2015, 04:03 PM   #32
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"dangling the open borders/free for all carrot" is a little trite...

Is it?

Like you say there have been refugees and migrants crossing the Mediterranean for many, many years. The Syrian war started in 2011, Aleppo was bombed for the first time in late 2011, yet these masses of immigrants trying to reach Western Europe has started when? And is it getting any better since the media got involved on a whole new level a few months ago?

Refugees should be welcomed, there is absolutely no question about that. My issue is the tens of thousands of migrants taking up resources, aid and shelter that was meant for people fleeing a war torn country. There is nothing wrong with migrating for economic reasons either, heck, I moved to a different country myself, but I didn't march up to the border and demanded entrance. I know it's not all that simple and lines do get blurry, but what is happening now is not sustainable and no nation can integrate these massive amounts of people in one go.

And those that will suffer in the end, will be the actual refugees running for their lives because immigration will be nearly impossible in the next little while.




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Old 09-19-2015, 04:28 PM   #33
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Most of the young Syrian men are probably draft dodgers. Previously, they could pay $2000 to avoid conscription. Given the depletion in the army ranks, they're probably cracking down on the dodgers.

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If Germany wants them they should just send a fleet of Lufthansa planes to Izmir, Turkey and airlift them. Same goes for other countries.
I believe there's a EU law stating they need to be physically present in the EU to claim asylum.
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Old 09-19-2015, 04:42 PM   #34
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I believe there's a EU law stating they need to be physically present in the EU to claim asylum.
There is also an EU law that the first EU country into which they cross, they must seek asylum there. Which nobody is doing.
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Old 09-19-2015, 05:32 PM   #35
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There is also an EU law that the first EU country into which they cross, they must seek asylum there. Which nobody is doing.
I saw some quotes from refugees that they tried that, but were denied on the spot. Or they were put into camps behind barbed wire.
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Old 09-19-2015, 09:07 PM   #36
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I don't know where you read that but those are miniscule outliers. Virtually every other interview has said that "we don't want to stay in Greece/Hungary/Croatia/Bulgaria/Slovenia, we want to go to Germany!!"
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:25 AM   #37
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Many don't want to stay because of the inhumane way they were treated. Most of these countries rejected the refugee quotas proposed by the EU, so they weren't going to end up staying long in any case. The Hungarian PM made some heinous comments about them as well.
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Old 09-20-2015, 03:32 PM   #38
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I think some of the countries have behaved poorly but MOST of these people had no intention of ever staying there anyway. It has been patently clear from the beginning they wanted to go to Germany, and possibly Sweden. The countries which have openly said no to quotas are Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland, of those, Hungary is the only country that the people found themselves in. So far Croatia has had well over 20,000 people cross the border and 2 claimed asylum despite the local government accepting the quota (first 1600, then 3500) imposed on them. What is wrong with Slovenia? Austria has seen relatively few claims as well.
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Old 11-21-2015, 12:02 PM   #39
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I think a good read on the theories underlying the different attitudes toward refugees (and also migrants) is this essay by Alexander Betts, director of the Refugee Studies Centre and Professor of Refugee and Forced Migration Studies at the University of Oxford:
The Normative Terrain of the Global Refugee Regime - Ethics & International Affairs : Ethics & International Affairs

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As I stated at the beginning of this essay, the refugee regime is at a crossroads. Created in the aftermath of the Second World War, the regime was a product of its time. Since then, international society has evolved. The distribution of power in the international system has changed, as has the nature of displacement. As asylum and immigration have become more politicized, so too has the protection space available to refugees diminished.
[...]
Old assumptions no longer apply. Refugees are not an inevitable cost on host states; they can also be a socioeconomic benefit. States are no longer the only protection actors; markets also matter for the outcomes for refugees.
[...]
To renegotiate it today would be almost politically impossible; indeed, it would likely result in a worse agreement than was arrived at in 1951.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:44 PM   #40
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I saw a post and video on Facebook today on the riots occurring in Europe.

I have not seen anything on this in the mainstream U.S. media.

I did a Google search and got a lot of hits.
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