Random FYM Thread

[anitram]

Originally Posted by digitize

Meh, I'm not sure I'm sympathetic to arguments about air travel being shitty. In real terms, it's vastly cheaper to travel by air than it used to be. Consumers have shown time and time again that, given a choice between price and comfort, they'll choose price - so airlines accommodate that. If you want to pay a bit extra for more comfort, the options exist. It's still reasonably priced compared to the "golden age" of flying..

It's entirely possible that airline travel is cheaper (again you are speaking from the US point of view, not all of us have the same level of competition and lower prices available) AND it is also a terrible experience.

And it simply isn't true that if you want to pay a "bit" more for comfort, the options exist. Sorry, they do not. I travel fairly often, both economy and business/first. There is nothing you can do to pay "a bit" more, other than maybe upgrade to economy seats which are labeled premium (lol) buying you a couple more inches of leg room. These seats also are few in number so even if you have the intention to upgrade you often won't have the actual ability to do so. The food, if you want to call chips and chocolate bars and hummus with crackers acceptable on 5+ hour flights, has to be bought at exorbitant prices. I am therefore not sure what you are referring to when you say that for a bit more you can have the comfort you want. Really the only comfort you're going to get is upgrading to business or first and those options are completely out of reach for the majority of people unless they are using miles to upgrade (and doing so like a year in advance).

I would not complain if we were in fact given some option between economy, which on some airlines feels like cattle class, and business/first. What is worse is for those of us outside of US, Canada specifically, we live in an oligopoly of 2 national airlines and a couple of small regional ones. I recently flew to San Diego on Air Canada Rouge. "Rouge" is their cheaper airline and it's truthfully unbearable. It is akin to a Greyhound in the sky but with less leg room. I am 5'8 and I could not have adequate leg room, and had to sit with the knees of the man behind me digging into my back. A complicating factor is that I have a blood clotting disorder so I have to shoot up with heparin to make sure a flight like this basically doesn't kill me. My husband is 6'1 and had to sit spread eagle the entire time, which must have been fun for the woman next to him. Needless to say I will never fly Rouge again, but the issue is on this particular flight path you don't even have the option of flying the regular Air Canada planes (not that they are anything to write home about but at least the space is manageable).

I get that most consumers will just look for the lowest price, especially in the era of online booking where you can compare among airlines. Which is fine, but I think a significant portion WOULD be willing to pay "a bit" more as you say for something better except that something doesn't actually exist.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Flag carriers get preferential treatment, per say. In some countries, they're quite literally nationalized airlines. State-owned. American Airlines, I believe, used to be one. But that's history, they're entirely a private company now. Just with the registration of being a flag carrier.

Right, but I'm trying to understand the endless pockets, and which crowds are longing for now defunct regulations?

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Report of explosives thrown at Borussia Dortmund team bus while it was preparing to go to their Champions League game this afternoon.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by anitram

It's entirely possible that airline travel is cheaper (again you are speaking from the US point of view, not all of us have the same level of competition and lower prices available) AND it is also a terrible experience.



And it simply isn't true that if you want to pay a "bit" more for comfort, the options exist. Sorry, they do not. I travel fairly often, both economy and business/first. There is nothing you can do to pay "a bit" more, other than maybe upgrade to economy seats which are labeled premium (lol) buying you a couple more inches of leg room. These seats also are few in number so even if you have the intention to upgrade you often won't have the actual ability to do so. The food, if you want to call chips and chocolate bars and hummus with crackers acceptable on 5+ hour flights, has to be bought at exorbitant prices. I am therefore not sure what you are referring to when you say that for a bit more you can have the comfort you want. Really the only comfort you're going to get is upgrading to business or first and those options are completely out of reach for the majority of people unless they are using miles to upgrade (and doing so like a year in advance).



I would not complain if we were in fact given some option between economy, which on some airlines feels like cattle class, and business/first. What is worse is for those of us outside of US, Canada specifically, we live in an oligopoly of 2 national airlines and a couple of small regional ones. I recently flew to San Diego on Air Canada Rouge. "Rouge" is their cheaper airline and it's truthfully unbearable. It is akin to a Greyhound in the sky but with less leg room. I am 5'8 and I could not have adequate leg room, and had to sit with the knees of the man behind me digging into my back. A complicating factor is that I have a blood clotting disorder so I have to shoot up with heparin to make sure a flight like this basically doesn't kill me. My husband is 6'1 and had to sit spread eagle the entire time, which must have been fun for the woman next to him. Needless to say I will never fly Rouge again, but the issue is on this particular flight path you don't even have the option of flying the regular Air Canada planes (not that they are anything to write home about but at least the space is manageable).



I get that most consumers will just look for the lowest price, especially in the era of online booking where you can compare among airlines. Which is fine, but I think a significant portion WOULD be willing to pay "a bit" more as you say for something better except that something doesn't actually exist.

I'm going to disagree with you about "a bit". I fly American Airlines typically, and their Main Cabin Extra product comes at about $30-$50 more on a ~$200 one-way flight, with honestly very generous legroom, which I consider to be a perfectly reasonable price to pay. Not within everyone's reach, of course, but it's not like they're pricing it in Monopolistic McMoneybags style. A ~25% price increase seems rather fair for something that takes up ~25% of a seat.

I'm going to agree with you about flying Canada, though (and yes, my perspective in my first post is 100% about the US - I should have caveated it thusly.) The lack of competition in that market is astounding (also caveating that you deal with it more than I). It's borne out by tiny regional jets setting capacity far below what it should be on what you'd expect to be major routes like LGA-YYZ. Every time I go up to Toronto I'm astounded by how expensive the tickets are.

[anitram]

You may have that option but I have never EVER seen premium economy so cheap. I don't fly a lot within the US so that may be the reason, but it's really not the case on long haul international flights no matter the airline. For example, a premium economy seat to HK or Tokyo from Toronto would cost $1900, which is more than 2x the cost of an economy ticket on a couple of airlines. About a 115% increase, which is really not "a bit". The cheapest I can find is about a 65% mark up, but on an airline I'd probably choose not to fly. And given that premium economy seats really only make sense on flights of 5+ hours which feature bigger planes (like the Dreamliner, there the premium economy seats are REALLY comfortable), it's pretty crappy if this is your best choice.

[LuckyNumber7]

I'm flying premium economy on Air France to the US in two days. It was nearly the same price, transatlantic. I did one leg of my roundtrip on Virgin Atlantic at premium economy as well, for only $100 extra (so $800 total). Sometimes you can get deals that are worth it. The price of transatlantic flights have fallen through the floor, which is nice.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by BVS

Right, but I'm trying to understand the endless pockets, and which crowds are longing for now defunct regulations?

I didn't understand the latter, but it's my understanding that he's saying nationalized airlines frequently lose money but offer better products. I will say, American and United are complete and utter garbage carriers.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

I'm flying premium economy on Air France to the US in two days. It was nearly the same price, transatlantic. I did one leg of my roundtrip on Virgin Atlantic at premium economy as well, for only $100 extra (so $800 total). Sometimes you can get deals that are worth it. The price of transatlantic flights have fallen through the floor, which is nice.

Again, that's because in the US you have way more choices than we do here which means increased competition and lower prices.

The airline industry in Canada is borderline criminal (like the telecoms). You know we are desperate when we were begging Verizon (!) to come up here. Even they couldn't break the oligopoly.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by anitram

Again, that's because in the US you have way more choices than we do here which means increased competition and lower prices.



The airline industry in Canada is borderline criminal (like the telecoms). You know we are desperate when we were begging Verizon (!) to come up here. Even they couldn't break the oligopoly.

I could probably research this, but do you know why carriers other than Air Canada and WestJet haven't taken off in Canada? Are there government barriers to entry? Is it maybe just the fact that it's a relatively small market over a giant land area? Either of those could make it make sense for some sort of policy intervention (although a different one in each case).

[anitram]

Originally Posted by digitize

I could probably research this, but do you know why carriers other than Air Canada and WestJet haven't taken off in Canada? Are there government barriers to entry? Is it maybe just the fact that it's a relatively small market over a giant land area? Either of those could make it make sense for some sort of policy intervention (although a different one in each case).

We've had others that have gone under over the years, and we do have some regionals like Porter in southern Ontario, a couple up in the far north and I think there was one out west (Harmony?) that may or may not still exist.

It's basically a question of geography and population - a huge land mass and relatively small number of people combined with our strict rules on foreign carriers. You are not permitted under Canadian law to fly with a foreign carrier between Canadian cities (unless it's something like Air France flies from Toronto to Paris but stops in Montreal to let passengers on). That restricts competition and therefore only reinforces the existing oligopoly. Incredibly protectionist, but that's par for the course up here.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by anitram

We've had others that have gone under over the years, and we do have some regionals like Porter in southern Ontario, a couple up in the far north and I think there was one out west (Harmony?) that may or may not still exist.

It's basically a question of geography and population - a huge land mass and relatively small number of people combined with our strict rules on foreign carriers. You are not permitted under Canadian law to fly with a foreign carrier between Canadian cities (unless it's something like Air France flies from Toronto to Paris but stops in Montreal to let passengers on). That restricts competition and therefore only reinforces the existing oligopoly. Incredibly protectionist, but that's par for the course up here.

Hey, legalize cabotage and you too can have the privilege of flying United on your text trip to Vancouver.

[DaveC]

a flight out of a canadian city is at least 3x more expensive than a flight out of an american city. it's just a result of our much lower population density and similar geography. it's vastly harder to fill toronto to vancouver flights than chicago to seattle flights, but it doesn't cost any less for the canadian airline to fuel up the aircraft to fly those distances. not sure if air canada/westjet pay for fuel in CAD but if so that would have even more of an effect.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by anitram

Again, that's because in the US you have way more choices than we do here which means increased competition and lower prices.



The airline industry in Canada is borderline criminal (like the telecoms). You know we are desperate when we were begging Verizon (!) to come up here. Even they couldn't break the oligopoly.

These pertain to flights originating in Europe, booked via European airlines.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

These pertain to flights originating in Europe, booked via European airlines.

But they are flying into a location which has so many more options! Consequently the prices are WAY lower. That Euro airline is competing with a bunch of American airlines at the same time and on our end it's competing with Air Canada, full stop.

As a way of example, an Air France flight (cheapest option) on Premium Economy, for 1 week on June 1 to Toronto vs JFK, so basically the closest comparable location is $1271 vs $1052 (all figures in USD w fees).

[anitram]

Originally Posted by DaveC

a flight out of a canadian city is at least 3x more expensive than a flight out of an american city. it's just a result of our much lower population density and similar geography. it's vastly harder to fill toronto to vancouver flights than chicago to seattle flights, but it doesn't cost any less for the canadian airline to fuel up the aircraft to fly those distances. not sure if air canada/westjet pay for fuel in CAD but if so that would have even more of an effect.

We also have much higher airport fees, now some of that is to defray the cost of new or renovated airports, but still.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by anitram

We also have much higher airport fees, now some of that is to defray the cost of new or renovated airports, but still.

I'll also say - compare Pearson to LaGuardia or Newark, or probably even JFK, and you'll be happy for at least a bit of that delta in airport fees.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by digitize

I'll also say - compare Pearson to LaGuardia or Newark, or probably even JFK, and you'll be happy for at least a bit of that delta in airport fees.

Haha, yes. Terminal 1 at Pearson is wonderful, one of the best around. I don't mind JFK that much, what sucks about it is the distance to midtown where I would typically go. LaGuardia is disgusting, it's honestly nastier than some 3rd world airports I've been to.

[BoMac]

http://www.latimes.com/business/laza...412-story.html

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by anitram

But they are flying into a location which has so many more options! Consequently the prices are WAY lower. That Euro airline is competing with a bunch of American airlines at the same time and on our end it's competing with Air Canada, full stop.



As a way of example, an Air France flight (cheapest option) on Premium Economy, for 1 week on June 1 to Toronto vs JFK, so basically the closest comparable location is $1271 vs $1052 (all figures in USD w fees).

I don't think that's why it's cheaper. Flights are cheaper based upon itinerary and traffic. CDG is a cheap airport for transatlantic routes. LHR is, too. YYwhatever isn't, except for certain minimal routes. I see lots of Lufthansa/ACanada fights for dirt cheap from where I am in Italy. Some $650, typically through Toronto or Newark with the final destination being Newark and going through somewhere Germany or London. That's got everything to do with Star Alliance traffic. But it's not about competition. It's about volume. The competition comes from airports offering attractive options for airlines and alliances.

You pay for a flight based upon the origination of the flight. Buying an American Airlines round trip from Europe and back is different from doing the reverse. But, ultimately, Canadian airports are lesser in volume. So if an airline sells more seats on their London to New York route, to fly London to Toronto is effectively like flying from London to New York and New York to Toronto. I don't mean that literally. Sometimes that's your itinerary, and sometimes it's virtually your itinerary even on a direct flight, because it's a less frequently offered product.

This same sort of pricing would happen if you managed to fly direct into somewhere like Philadelphia from Europe. You're less likely to find good deals.

[Iggy Fizz]

Originally Posted by anitram

We also have much higher airport fees, now some of that is to defray the cost of new or renovated airports, but still.

I love Canada but yes the markets there operate quite differently than in the US for example in a number of industries. Not just air travel but telecom as someone mentioned is highly protected. Even buying wine there, it is like going back to the 1970s (or to present day state of Pennsylvania) where the taxes are quite high and the state government runs all of the shops.

It used to be that way in Washington state until about 2008/9 or so...