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Old 08-18-2014, 10:10 AM   #141
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What are you referring to?

EDIT: Watch CNN and tell me honestly that the press coverage is being suppressed.

Teargassing a news crew and dismantling their camera equipment after they ran. Arresting two reporters for "not leaving a McDonald's fast enough." Pointing a gun at reporters and threatening to shoot them if they don't turn off a light.

So many first amendment rights violations, so little time. And for you to bring up the looters is sad. How many peaceful protestors are there compared to he people who looted six or seven days ago? Give me a break. The only person trying to frame a narrative here is you.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:15 AM   #142
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He was shot six times
Yes, and that is disconcerting at this point.

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while on his knees surrendering.
That is certainly not proven to be fact.

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The officer had no idea if he was a violent person.
Of course he did, Michael had just punched and/or pushed him.

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He only knew he was big and black and not on a sidewalk.
And you really believe this was the reason he was shot? That he was big and black and jaywalking. And not only that - the officer even waited until for Michael to get on his knees before shooting him 30 feet away in broad daylight...?
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:18 AM   #143
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Teargassing a news crew and dismantling their camera equipment after they ran. Arresting two reporters for "not leaving a McDonald's fast enough." Pointing a gun at reporters and threatening to shoot them if they don't turn off a light.

So many first amendment rights violations, so little time. And for you to bring up the looters is sad. How many peaceful protestors are there compared to he people who looted six or seven days ago? Give me a break. The only person trying to frame a narrative here is you.
I mentioned the looters because they were...well...looting. I am sure you would want the police to stop someone from burning down your neighborhood.

I don't think anyone has a problem with peaceful protests. I certainly do not.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:18 AM   #144
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No, I am questioning this notion that Michael was gunned down while peacefully surrendering to the charge of jaywalking.
You're being intellectually dishonest with yourself, you are going beyond just questioning this notion. You're treating this as a black or white scenario; either Michael is an angel or a thug, either he assaulted warranting death or he peacefully surrendered. The majority of us believe there could have been a scuffle and a surrender.
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Michael is 6'4" and almost 300 pounds, if he didn't want to be apprehended by hand, he wasn't going to be. And as we saw only 10 minutes before he was shot, Michael did not hesitate to use his size to do whatever he wanted to do.
Yeah against an unarmed 5' tall convenient store clerk. A gun will make most men, no matter their size hesitate.
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Unfortunately I am. After watching the citizens being interviewed this week on CNN, it is obvious they are using this incident to lodge a bigger complaint at society. Also - their stories contradict on some of the most key parts of the incident. Some say he was shot surrendering. Some say he was shot running away. Another says he was shot while doubling back and charging the cop (this is also the officer's version).
Eyewitnesses are often going to have contradictory stories, you look for the consistencies.
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I am simply challenging this notion that Darren Wilson, an officer with a reputation for gentleness and an unblemished track record, suddenly went into a racist rage and gunned down a black man who was peacefully surrendering to the charge of jaywalking. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

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Wait, so now you know Darren Wilson? Once again you are doing the exact thing that you accusing others of. We don't know Wilson any better than we know Michael.

Is it possible that Michael surrendered after a scuffle? The autopsy so far suggest that the shots were not close range, so this didn't occur while reaching for his gun, so Wilson had control of the gun before shots fired, so that theory seems to be thrown out the window. At least 5 shots? Unless Michael was a zombie that kept moving towards him, most cops are going to see an issue with this. And perhaps the most damning is that one of these shots enter from the top of his head which suggests shooting after he had already fallen to the ground, which is consistent to some eyewitnesses.

So this whole notion that this is cut and dry, and you're sticking with your tribe is bullshit. Both sides deserve to be questioned.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:19 AM   #145
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He punched or pushed the officer according to whom?

And yes he had surrendered. He got shot in the palm. His hands were up. He got shot in the top of the head after he had already fallen.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:20 AM   #146
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You're basically insinuating that if you're a liberal, you just get race relations.

All I'm trying to say is that if someone identifies with one political leaning, or another, that does not mean that that person 1) Understands all of the subjects that side may focus on nor 2) Does it mean that a person on the other side of the line completely agrees with everything their contemporaries do.

I'm not saying all liberals get it. I'm saying all conservatives don't.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:25 AM   #147
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He punched or pushed the officer according to whom?
There are claims that there are photos taken at the hospital following the indecent of injuries to his face. Who knows what to believe, I have a hard time believing this police department who released an unrelated video just to win empathy for their side wouldn't have released these photos yet, but then again this police department doesn't seem to be the brightest group of cops out there.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:26 AM   #148
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He punched or pushed the officer according to whom?

And yes he had surrendered. He got shot in the palm. His hands were up. He got shot in the top of the head after he had already fallen.
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Accounts of exactly what happened when Officer Darren Wilson stopped Brown while the teen was walking down a street vary widely.

Witnesses said they saw a scuffle between the officer and Brown at the police car before the young man was shot.
Missouri National Guard headed to Ferguson - CNN.com
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:38 AM   #149
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Racist Police Response to Ferguson Protests

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Yes he was murdered. He was shot six times while on his knees surrendering. The officer had no idea if he was a violent person. He only knew he was big and black and not on a sidewalk.

Exactly. I don't think I the officer was in some kind of "racist rage" -- but he was much more trigger happy and nervousness because he was dealing with a large black male than had he been dealing with a large white male. In the same way that Zimmerman wouldn't have tried to play Robocop had TM been a white or Asian male.

We need to get beyond cartoonish understandings of racism and start to understand how race permeates everything, especially when it comes to young black men and the police in certain areas of the country.

Just because it's not Mississippi Burning doesn't mean there isn't a problem here.


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Old 08-18-2014, 10:52 AM   #150
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Both sides deserve to be questioned.
Actually - that is exactly what I am trying to do. I am trying to point out that there are other possibilities than the one people like PhilsFan are sticking with.

It may turn out that the officer did respond excessively after the scuffle, and he will be charged accordingly. But at least we are now at the point we can begin to discuss a little more motive behind the shooting other than racism (a very large man was just bold enough to hit a cop and possible reach for the weapon).

My hunch tells me (based on what we've heard from witnesses and police) that they will prove there was a scuffle and there was a shot fired in the squad car during that scuffle. Beyond that - it will be difficult to prove that Michael was surrendering or charging. One witness said he thought the cop was missing because Michael kept moving toward him (perhaps the arm shots were first?).

One problem is the lack of a dashcam and lapel cam. It's a rather inexpensive way to add clarity to situations like this.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:10 AM   #151
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Beyond that - it will be difficult to prove that Michael was surrendering or charging.
Not really. If all three autopsies agree about the bullet entry in the brow, it will be very difficult to prove he was "charging" due to his height.



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Old 08-18-2014, 11:39 AM   #152
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Amid angry condemnations of the police and pledges to move away from the mean streets of Ferguson, one man describes what he saw as he witnessed the shooting. He seems to describe how the 6 foot, 4 inch, 300-pound Brown tussled with Police Officer Darren Wilson and charged him, an account that may corroborate Wilson's story and cast doubt on claims of other purported witnesses who say Wilson shot Brown as he ran away, his hands in the air.

"I mean, the police was in the truck [sic] and he was, like, over the truck," the man says. "So then he ran, police got out and ran after him.

“The next thing I know, he comes back towards them. The police had his guns drawn on him."
YouTube video captures purported witness backing police version in Ferguson shooting | Fox News
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:47 AM   #153
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We need to get beyond cartoonish understandings of racism and start to understand how race permeates everything,
Do you consider yourself a racist?
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:28 PM   #154
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:55 PM   #155
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Mikal,

I originally heard about it here:

LiveLeak.com - Michael Brown Eye Witness Crime Scene Video, FULL : videos

It is certainly not definitive, but it does indicate there are multiple versions of the shooting.

On CNN this morning a witness just claimed Michael Brown was shot several times from behind while the officer was in pursuit.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:56 PM   #156
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Do you consider yourself a racist?

I consider myself racially aware.


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Old 08-18-2014, 02:31 PM   #157
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I consider myself racially aware.


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I'm not sure I know what that means and how it is different from being a racist. Is locking your car door a black neighborhood racially aware or racist?
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:36 PM   #158
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Aeon, I think you're stretching just as much as those you're disagreeing with when you make the connection from shoving a clerk out of the way to grabbing a police officer's gun. It makes your charge of people being hasty in their assumptions just a bit compromised when you think a kid who shoplifts and then pushes a clerk out of his way would totally, obviously also charge a cop and try and get his gun, despite the completely different authority and power dynamics between the two situations.

It also really bothers me that you've given to labeling Brown as a "thug."
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:48 PM   #159
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This video is inconclusive, but it certainly could be interpreted as Michael Brown at the register paying for something:



A few interpretations are that maybe Brown attempted to buy the cigarellos, but then the clerk refused because Brown was underage?

It certainly puts Brown's "strong-arm robbery" into a different light.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:53 PM   #160
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It also really bothers me that you've given to labeling Brown as a "thug."
'GENTLE GIANT': Mike Brown’s VERY Explicit Rap Songs Praising Drugs, Drinking, Ho's & Murder | Clash Daily
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