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Old 07-07-2016, 10:45 AM   #301
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I'm sure we can both agree however that whatever really happened ... a black man should not be dead right now.
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:35 AM   #302
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both of these videos are incredibly disturbing.

at the risk of sounding like i'm blaming the victim -- i'm not, at all -- but i do wonder if our heavily armed population makes our cops a bit more trigger happy and jumpy than they would be if firearms weren't so widely available.

what we have in Minneapolis is an example of a Responsible Gun Owner who did everything right, who informed the officer (which he is not even legally required to do by law), and still was gunned down in front of his girlfriend and daughter.

setting aside the obvious racism and issue with what seem to be piss-poor police officers, badly trained, it still stands that the mere presence of a gun makes you more likely to get shot.

there is no such thing as a responsible gun owner. it's like being a healthy smoker. most gun owners are well intentioned, but the act of owning a gun itself is irresponsible. always, and in all ways.

this violence is nothing new. it's just the cameras that are new. minorities haven't been making up stories of police brutality for decades.

i'm at a loss right now. how do we make our police better? how do we make us all safer? how do we address structural racism that often ends with a dead black man?
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:38 AM   #303
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there is no such thing as a responsible gun owner. it's like being a healthy smoker. most gun owners are well intentioned, but the act of owning a gun itself is irresponsible. always, and in all ways.
I don't agree. How is owning a gun in itself irresponsible?
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:47 AM   #304
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at the risk of sounding like i'm blaming the victim -- i'm not, at all -- but i do wonder if our heavily armed population makes our cops a bit more trigger happy and jumpy than they would be if firearms weren't so widely available.
Clearly yes.

It's why I'm always so baffled why there are so many officers who support the NRA. The two things don't go hand in hand. You would think the majority would want as many guns off the street as possible.

It's also another sign of our institutional racism in this country. Everyone comes out crying for gun control after mass shootings, but you don't see the same level of outrage at the daily killings in poor black neighborhoods.

It's time to get the god damn guns off of the god damn streets. Everywhere. No good comes from it.
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:48 AM   #305
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I don't agree. How is owning a gun in itself irresponsible?

my point is a broad one: owning a gun is an invitation to bring gun violence into your world. the mere presence of a gun dramatically increases the likelihood that you or someone you know will be shot in your house or in your presence. maybe you.

i also want to stress, again, that neither of these men did anything wrong, let anything to deserve being killed. they are innocent victims of police brutality due in large part to their skin color.

what we have here are two incidents where one person was, reportedly, carrying a gun and possibly threatening people in the parking lot. the other, someone had proven himself "responsible" enough to get a concealed carry permit. he informed the officer which he did not legally have to do that he had a gun.

both men are dead.

race and bad police officers are a factor here.

the mere presence of a gun is another.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:00 PM   #306
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my point is a broad one: owning a gun is an invitation to bring gun violence into your world. the mere presence of a gun dramatically increases the likelihood that you or someone you know will be shot in your house or in your presence. maybe you.
Owning a car increases the likelihood you or someone will be killed in a car accident, but I wouldn't say that makes you irresponsible.

I think you can be a responsible gun owner. I don't believe our carry laws are very responsible. I don't believe our purchasing laws are responsible. And I DO believe that if anyone still supports the NRA they ARE partially responsible for the problems we have on our streets.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:12 PM   #307
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Owning a car increases the likelihood you or someone will be killed in a car accident, but I wouldn't say that makes you irresponsible.

I think you can be a responsible gun owner. I don't believe our carry laws are very responsible. I don't believe our purchasing laws are responsible. And I DO believe that if anyone still supports the NRA they ARE partially responsible for the problems we have on our streets.


i think that cars are used for purposes other than killing people in accidents.

guns are designed to pump hot metal into flesh in order to end life.

i also think that i'm distracting from what should be the real focus: the victims.

for that i'm sorry.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:13 PM   #308
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The silence from the NRA is deafening.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:18 PM   #309
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i think that cars are used for purposes other than killing people in accidents.

guns are designed to pump hot metal into flesh in order to end life.

i also think that i'm distracting from what should be the real focus: the victims.

for that i'm sorry.
You and I are probably 90-95% in agreeance on guns, but I do believe that self defense and hunting are legitimate purposes and can be done so responsibly.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:42 PM   #310
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The silence from the NRA is deafening.
Not surprising. The NRA has a long history of racism, this is exactly what they want.

In fact the NRA's first lobbying efforts were all based on gun control, and it's first effort was to make it illegal for freed slaves to own guns.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:43 PM   #311
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You and I are probably 90-95% in agreeance on guns, but I do believe that self defense and hunting are legitimate purposes and can be done so responsibly.
You can hunt with a bow and arrow, too.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:46 PM   #312
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You can hunt with a bow and arrow, too.
That's how real men do it...
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:47 PM   #313
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You and I are probably 90-95% in agreeance on guns, but I do believe that self defense and hunting are legitimate purposes and can be done so responsibly.


I can agree on hunting. Ideally I'd like to see a hunting club where guns are stored, and then used as needed.

I realize I'm not making a fully practical point. But I think it's true that the self-defense argument is statistically neutralized by the increased likelihood of accidents, suicides, or domestic disputes escalating and ending in death because a gun was present in the home.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:55 PM   #314
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That's how real men do it...
Word
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:08 PM   #315
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When there's a mass shooting, we hear people say "if only they were carrying".

But when an officer shoots a civilian we hear people say "well he shouldn't be carrying".

When a man is shot by an officer we get a full list of his previous record.

When a college student rapes an unconscious woman, we hear about his past accomplishments.

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Old 07-07-2016, 01:16 PM   #316
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both of these videos are incredibly disturbing.

at the risk of sounding like i'm blaming the victim -- i'm not, at all -- but i do wonder if our heavily armed population makes our cops a bit more trigger happy and jumpy than they would be if firearms weren't so widely available.
I listened to an interview on our public radio with a law enforcement consultant (whatever that is) and he was talking about this exact point. He works across North America and he said it's a big difference between Canada and the US and also a big difference between US states which have disparate gun control laws or varying levels of gun ownership per capita. Anyway, his point was that police essentially expect members of the public to be armed in certain areas and that informs their behaviour. Seems pretty obvious to me that would be the case.
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:49 PM   #317
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don't forget guys that this is all just glorified hyperbole. racism ended in the 60s and now we just don't see it anymore.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:03 PM   #318
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Clearly yes.

It's why I'm always so baffled why there are so many officers who support the NRA. The two things don't go hand in hand. You would think the majority would want as many guns off the street as possible.

It's also another sign of our institutional racism in this country. Everyone comes out crying for gun control after mass shootings, but you don't see the same level of outrage at the daily killings in poor black neighborhoods.

It's time to get the god damn guns off of the god damn streets. Everywhere. No good comes from it.
Exactly.

And the racism thing...Larry Wilmore made a similar point on his show last night. All the people who cry, "But ALL lives matter!" in response to the "Black Lives Matter" movement, they sure seem eerily silent right now. They aren't forming any "All Lives Matter" protests in the streets or raising awareness on social media or whatever. If they truly think all lives matter, why aren't they out protesting this?

I'm so glad others are pointing out the hypocrisy of the "open carry" laws, too, when it comes to white people versus black people. Yeah, apparently the "Second Amendment rights!" argument doesn't apply to black people.

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When there's a mass shooting, we hear people say "if only they were carrying".

But when an officer shoots a civilian we hear people say "well he shouldn't be carrying".

When a man is shot by an officer we get a full list of his previous record.

When a college student rapes an unconscious woman, we hear about his past accomplishments.

Again .

Continuing on with your last point, I saw someone point out one time how people's opinion of someone being drunk varies in rape situations, too. If a man assaults a woman when he's drunk, it's excused and brushed away. "He's normally not like that, his judgment was impaired."

But if a woman's raped when she's drunk, "Well, she shouldn't have had so much to drink, it's her fault."

Gotta love those double standards.
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Old 07-07-2016, 03:47 PM   #319
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Rape and domestic abuse aren't "major" crimes?
When did I say they weren't?
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Old 07-07-2016, 03:49 PM   #320
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I'm in agreement about the cops being extra trigger happy because guns are so rampant. I know for a fact that when cops are called into the Bayview area of San Francisco (there's certain blocks where the murders just pile up over the course of a year), that they wait a few minutes before rushing in there. Obviously, you have a better chance catching the murderer the quicker you arrive at the scene, but of course that would mean running into said murderer who possesses a gun and clearly isn't afraid to use it.
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