Pure, uneducated ignorance. Go religion!

[Jive Turkey]

I went to see Book of Mormon again a couple weeks ago. There was a Mormon guy out front handing out books. I think I secretly love Mormons

[u2popmofo]

It's a very unique, even endearing at times, culture. That's one of the reasons so many people get massively depressed when they start finding out a lot of the truth of the church's history, early doctrines, etc. Most all ex-believers had some aspects of it they really loved and connected with.

[Jive Turkey]

Well, you can at least take some comfort in the fact that Mormonism isn't any more made up than any other religion on the planet. It just doesn't have the veil of time to hide behind. Any you can be somewhat proud that they decided being really nice to everybody was a good quality to promote while they were at it. Their initial response to The Book of Mormon musical was to buy ad space in the Playbill magazine. I can think of at least one other religion whose response wouldn't have been nearly as non violent (or as charming)

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Any you can be somewhat proud that they decided being really nice to everybody was a good quality to promote while they were at it.

Polite, maybe, which is different from genuine kindness.

"35 years of prayer couldn't get rid of my homosexuality. My name is Steve and I am an Ex Mormon." - YouTube

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Polite, maybe, which is different from genuine kindness.

If you're expecting me to run to the defense of religion, you're barking up the wrong tree.
You'd be wrong to assume all religions are equally harmful, however. At the very least, this guy wasn't buried up to his neck before having his brains bashed in with rocks and concrete

[jeevey]

Why would I expect that? Or why would I assume that second thing? What a funny bunch of things to say.

[u2popmofo]

Your post in general was a "funny thing" to say too, so what do you expect? Most Christians think homosexuality is wrong because of the Bible, the same as they thought slavery was justified, religious genocides were acceptable, gender inequality wasn't bad, and a wide variety of other things that (hopefully) most have now have moved past. Every religion, not just Christianity, has to pick and choose which aspects they still believe or practice if they believe in an ancient holy book. It's one of the fundamental criticisms from non-believers, the obvious hypocrisies and contradictions of using an ancient text full of things "believers" don't actually believe any more is incredibly frustrating.

That said, to imply that many of these people aren't "kind" for practicing their beliefs is insulting. My family, countless friends, and majority of people I work with or see day to day are all "unkind" because their religion has indoctrinated them to believe homosexuality is a sin? Certainly the church's response to homosexuality has been an antiquated mess for decades, let alone the more recent years. Looking from the outside in, it's flat out offensive. Truth be told, for a huge percentage of younger Mormons, even looking from the inside in, it's a very offensive stance.

The church is headed by extremely old men who live, and grew up, inside a Mormon bubble. You can essentially take all the bigotries and prejudices you'd expect of most 70 year olds in the US, and then imagine as if they were raised 30 or 40 years before they actually were, and that's the level of "behind the times" the LDS church's leaders mindsets are in. They're not "unkind", evil people going out of their way to hurt homosexuals. They're just incredibly out of touch old people who they themselves were indoctrinated to believe they were called by God to lead, and thus think their opinions in turn must be God's opinions. Luckily, you can tell they're starting to learn that their mentality has been behind the times based on a lot of policies and responses the LDS church has made over the last year regarding homosexuality. They still have a very long ways to go to, but positive things are luckily happening.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Why would I expect that? Or why would I assume that second thing? What a funny bunch of things to say.

Pretty much what Mofo said. To imply individuals are fraudulently kind people based on their religious dogma is inherently idiotic.
Do you think no religious people are capable of genuine kindness? No? Then what a pointless and dumb series of posts to make

[LemonMelon]

Guys, can I just love Jesus and think many of the earmarks of evangelical Christianity are idiotic and non-Christian in principle? Because I think that's about where I am right now. I love Christianity and try my best to follow the teachings themselves but man people can't read or something.

I think a lot of religious folk want to be kind but have a radically different idea of what kindness is because of the way they were raised, which really does no one else any good.

[U2DMfan]

Most devout Christians are really, really good people. That certainly includes most Mormons as well. Wonderful people actually. They have some arcane teachings that require (or justify) bigotry and general ignorance in certain instances. And they have their share of hypocrites just as much as any other walk of life. But mostly they are just good people. We don't have enough good people in this world.

I particularly like Mormons. They do a lot in their communities that I've seen.

Although I am not religious and probably never will be (again) and haven't been in 20 years, as I grow older, I move further away from the youthful skeptic that just loathes religion and into someone that actually sees an incredible lot of good it can do. If we could only move more of them away from homophobia and anti-science positions, more people would be able to see it.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by u2popmofo

Your post in general was a "funny thing" to say too, so what do you expect? Most Christians think homosexuality is wrong because of the Bible, the same as they thought slavery was justified, religious genocides were acceptable, gender inequality wasn't bad, and a wide variety of other things that (hopefully) most have now have moved past. Every religion, not just Christianity, has to pick and choose which aspects they still believe or practice if they believe in an ancient holy book. It's one of the fundamental criticisms from non-believers, the obvious hypocrisies and contradictions of using an ancient text full of things "believers" don't actually believe any more is incredibly frustrating.

That said, to imply that many of these people aren't "kind" for practicing their beliefs is insulting. My family, countless friends, and majority of people I work with or see day to day are all "unkind" because their religion has indoctrinated them to believe homosexuality is a sin? Certainly the church's response to homosexuality has been an antiquated mess for decades, let alone the more recent years. Looking from the outside in, it's flat out offensive. Truth be told, for a huge percentage of younger Mormons, even looking from the inside in, it's a very offensive stance.

The church is headed by extremely old men who live, and grew up, inside a Mormon bubble. You can essentially take all the bigotries and prejudices you'd expect of most 70 year olds in the US, and then imagine as if they were raised 30 or 40 years before they actually were, and that's the level of "behind the times" the LDS church's leaders mindsets are in. They're not "unkind", evil people going out of their way to hurt homosexuals. They're just incredibly out of touch old people who they themselves were indoctrinated to believe they were called by God to lead, and thus think their opinions in turn must be God's opinions. Luckily, you can tell they're starting to learn that their mentality has been behind the times based on a lot of policies and responses the LDS church has made over the last year regarding homosexuality. They still have a very long ways to go to, but positive things are luckily happening.

Every year at DC Pride you will see a large group of pro-gay Mormons marching.

[jeevey]

My point was that being polite in a nice PR kind of way is different from practicing genuine kindness, which involves caring about the quality of a person's existence- which the fellow in the link did not experience. It's not Mormon-specific, and it applies to most conservative religion. In my experience, religious conservatism is so anxious about being wrong, or preventing themselves or others from doing wrong, or helpfully telling others what they can do to avoid being wrong, that they are pretty limited in their ability to see and care for others simply as they are. The prescriptive attitude is fundamentally unkind, because it is disrespectful- it doesn't trust that others have the same ability to discover truth. That doesn't mean that religious people are bad people, it means that their ability to practice love towards others is seriously limited by their dogma.

Jive, your tendency to read new meanings into comments and determination to believe the worst about my intents are... remarkable.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by U2DMfan

Most devout Christians are really, really good people. That certainly includes most Mormons as well. Wonderful people actually. They have some arcane teachings that require (or justify) bigotry and general ignorance in certain instances. And they have their share of hypocrites just as much as any other walk of life. But mostly they are just good people. We don't have enough good people in this world.

I particularly like Mormons. They do a lot in their communities that I've seen.

Although I am not religious and probably never will be (again) and haven't been in 20 years, as I grow older, I move further away from the youthful skeptic that just loathes religion and into someone that actually sees an incredible lot of good it can do. If we could only move more of them away from homophobia and anti-science positions, more people would be able to see it.

Most atheists are really, really good people (and don't have the arcane teachings to cloud their good nature)

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

My point was that being polite in a nice PR kind of way is different from practicing genuine kindness, which involves caring about the quality of a person's existence- which the fellow in the link did not experience. It's not Mormon-specific, and it applies to most conservative religion. In my experience, religious conservatism is so anxious about being wrong, or preventing themselves or others from doing wrong, or helpfully telling others what they can do to avoid being wrong, that they are pretty limited in their ability to see and care for others simply as they are. The prescriptive attitude is fundamentally unkind, because it is disrespectful- it doesn't trust that others have the same ability to discover truth. That doesn't mean that religious people are bad people, it means that their ability to practice love towards others is seriously limited by their dogma.

Jive, your tendency to read new meanings into comments and determination to believe the worst about my intents are... remarkable.

Maybe just stick to policing the Discotheque forum

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

Guys, can I just love Jesus and think many of the earmarks of evangelical Christianity are idiotic and non-Christian in principle? Because I think that's about where I am right now. I love Christianity and try my best to follow the teachings themselves but man people can't read or something.

If most people would throw away the "organized" bit of organized religion this way, the world would be a much better place.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Most atheists are really, really good people (and don't have the arcane teachings to cloud their good nature)

Just the moral subjectivism? ;-)

I don't believe anybody's all that good...religious people included. Which is why we look back to the wisdom of those who have gone before, and hold to the teachings of those wiser than we. Jesus had some pretty profound things to say, and I know I need more of His wisdom working its way out in my life.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I don't believe anybody's all that good.

Of course you don't. This is more or less drilled in to every Christians head from birth. Are you saying, if not for Jesus, you'd be a bad person? That's a frightening proposition. I'm a good person because I care about the well being and happiness of people around me. I don't need old literature to help me there.

Where are you drawing your moral...objectivism (?)...from anyway? I'd love to hear more about it

[BEAL]

I get a little tired of this argument and comparison between morality and belief in gods (or lack of belief).

Atheism has nothing to do with morals, it's simply a lack of belief in god(s).

The problem is, some people feel that belief in God must mean you're a good person. Just like Jive asked and/or stated, if it wasn't for this belief in God, what would you do differently???? It's a scary thought, and if true, please continue to believe so that you don't hurt anyone or yourself.

I can't deny that the stuff written about Jesus' teaching are good, decent standards to go by. But it's not like he created the golden rule. How else did civilization survive before hearing the words of Jesus? How is it that China was a flourishing civilization without ever hearing the gospels (until much later on)?

Humans are built with a sense of morality inside them. We know that it's bad to physically or mentally abuse another of our species. We can base that because I don't want to get punched in the face, it's extremely likely that you don't want to get punched in the face.

Those that answer yes to questions of getting hurt, are crazy and why we have prisons or facilities to keep them away from the general public.

There are plenty of bad people that don't believe in God(s). There are plenty of people that are bad and religious. A difference between believers and non believers is that we non believers don't assign a negative to our being born. I was not born flawed (according to original sin) that demands saving. I don't NEED a savior in my life just because I was created. It's so obvious the scam of that, it creates fear right away, and a necessity to love the one you fear (God) and created you this way.

Of course we have flaws as humans. Some we learn about later on in life, and because of living and interacting with others that we care about , we're able to correct these flaws if we're lucky enough.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Of course you don't. This is more or less drilled in to every Christians head from birth.

I'm not sure what churches you've been to, but I've never been to a church that does this... Most people that I know that believe along these lines that Nathan talks about are older. My thought is that its developed through years of trying to justify certain things to themselves.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Of course you don't. This is more or less drilled in to every Christians head from birth. Are you saying, if not for Jesus, you'd be a bad person? That's a frightening proposition. I'm a good person because I care about the well being and happiness of people around me. I don't need old literature to help me there.

Your personal enlightenment is fantastic...for you. Plenty of people need the wisdom of someone outside themselves in order to help them sort out issues like right and wrong, healthy and unhealthy choices, show them how to live a life of service and generosity, etc. I don't buy the inherent arrogance of those who act like religion is a collection of old dusty books that everyone would be better off without and who treat with scorn anyone who gains wisdom from said books, any more than I buy the arrogance of those who act like religion is a club that only a qualified few (and usually only the people who look/think/sound like them) have access to.

If the story of human history is anything, it's that we are pretty damn far from perfect, and (if we're being honest) pretty shitty a lot of the time. Sometimes the most humble position to take is that we don't have it all figured out, and we could use some help.

If that's not for you, that's fine -- Jesus Himself said He didn't come for the people who had it all figured out, but for those who didn't. But let's not treat with derision and scorn those who are looking for wisdom in traditional places, just because you disagree with the source material.