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Old 02-26-2013, 01:01 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by bono_212 View Post
No one complains when Greek gods are mentioned in history class...well, almost no one.
Oh, let me tell you, Biblical history is effin fascinating. I think the next book I read might be on the topic. My living room looks a bit like a Victorian natural history museum and I've got a coin from when Constantine ruled in a display case (ok, that part isn't natural history, but I have old antiquities too). I love that stuff
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:02 AM   #82
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Anyways, did Jive say he was God just a minute ago?
I did, yes.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:05 AM   #83
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I hope I'm not going to make an ass of myself, but I think dimetrodons were precursors to protomammals... They certainly weren't direct ancestors to Dinosaurs like one would assume... Imma look into that
Listen, you. If I want to start my own religion about Dimetrodon's being the source of life, you won't stop me.

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Oh, let me tell you, Biblical history is effin fascinating. I think the next book I read might be on the topic. My living room looks a bit like a Victorian natural history museum and I've got a coin from when Constantine ruled in a display case (ok, that part isn't natural history, but I have old antiquities too). I love that stuff
History is my favorite thing in the entire universe. I can't get enough. Especially mythology.

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I did, yes.
Heathen....



...is an album by David Bowie. It's quite good.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:05 AM   #84
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Americans are very sensitive when their personal religious beliefs, culture and overall ways of thinking are challenged.
This level of sensitivity causes these issues to arise quite frequently, something that should not happen given the common purpose of life.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:07 AM   #85
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Can I be right and wrong? Ok. Thanks

"Generally reptile-like in appearance and physiology, Dimetrodon is nevertheless more closely related to mammals than it is to any living reptilian group, though it is not a direct ancestor of any mammals. Dimetrodon belongs to a group traditionally called "mammal-like reptiles", more recently termed "stem-mammals" or "non-mammalian synapsids"[2] because many vertebrate paleontologists today group Dimetrodon together with mammals in an evolutionary group or clade called Synapsida while dinosaurs go together with living reptiles and birds in a separate group, Sauropsida. "
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:12 AM   #86
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Americans are very sensitive when their personal religious beliefs, culture and overall ways of thinking are challenged.
This level of sensitivity causes these issues to arise quite frequently, something that should not happen given the common purpose of life.
I think it's just passion being expressed, though not always as focused as it could be. I'm certainly guilty of it. But I like that people can care so deeply about something that they get worked up every once in a while. As long as it eventually works its way toward thoughtful discussion as it did here, it serves its purpose. People get some shit off their chest and the juices start flowing (hopefully not out of a wound and onto the ground)
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:00 AM   #87
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Lets see ill probably just kill this thread...


I've always gone by the saying that God has to be objective right? Either exists or doesn't. As soon as it turns subjective then it's just a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. Science is the process of making a claim a fact or not.

I wouldn't want opinions taught in science, at least not taught as FACT. If you want to believe in a young earth that's fine, and if you want it a part of science class, then please provide the evidence or scientific process to this idea.

Because religion is subjective, it allows believers to continue to hold their faith in spite of what we have found to dispute it. Just reading this thread proves its just one mans/woman's opinion. One person believes the bible is the word of god, another believes its written by man but inspired. If god was indeed a fact would we really have differing opinions? And then throw in the different faiths:beliefs. Every religion can't be right, but they can all be wrong.

I want to stress I don't see a problem with believing. If it makes you a better person, gives you comfort or strength, then please use it! Jive and I are more concerned and get the most upset when it appears as though a belief system is trying to find its way into a process, institution or part of life where it does not belong. Private schools, home schooling, house of worship, your own social group....say whatever and believe whatever you want.

But please keep whatever belief theories out of public education system
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:22 AM   #88
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This kind of stuff definitely happens. A teacher at my husband's school got a talking-to because a parent complained s/he was teaching plate tectonics. All of the continents are where they were originally put by God.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:16 PM   #89
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Lets see ill probably just kill this thread...


I've always gone by the saying that God has to be objective right? Either exists or doesn't. As soon as it turns subjective then it's just a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. Science is the process of making a claim a fact or not.

I wouldn't want opinions taught in science, at least not taught as FACT. If you want to believe in a young earth that's fine, and if you want it a part of science class, then please provide the evidence or scientific process to this idea.

Because religion is subjective, it allows believers to continue to hold their faith in spite of what we have found to dispute it. Just reading this thread proves its just one mans/woman's opinion. One person believes the bible is the word of god, another believes its written by man but inspired. If god was indeed a fact would we really have differing opinions? And then throw in the different faiths:beliefs. Every religion can't be right, but they can all be wrong.

I want to stress I don't see a problem with believing. If it makes you a better person, gives you comfort or strength, then please use it! Jive and I are more concerned and get the most upset when it appears as though a belief system is trying to find its way into a process, institution or part of life where it does not belong. Private schools, home schooling, house of worship, your own social group....say whatever and believe whatever you want.

But please keep whatever belief theories out of public education system
well said

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This kind of stuff definitely happens. A teacher at my husband's school got a talking-to because a parent complained s/he was teaching plate tectonics. All of the continents are where they were originally put by God.
A talking to by whom? That's insanity
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:04 PM   #90
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Why aren't we teaching the controversy of Thor? I saw a film, and have read books about where he came down to earth and caused mass destruction due to other God's/Beings from other planets chasing him, and/or trying to take some of our resources. He's got a magical hammar!

Why aren't our kids learning about this? If there are planets that are holding destructive forces or evil, we should know about it.

Why isn't science telling us this? Please don't make fun of me though, this is just what I believe in, and it has a special meaning in my life.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:31 PM   #91
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Nobody around here is a bigger fan of science than me. And I am also a huge proponent of keeping God and/or religion out of classrooms. I'm also from Oklahoma, so I've been keeping up with this one. All that said, I actually read the bill. It has been discussed at length on a local forum. It doesn't exactly do what Mother Jones reported. Although it is certainly a stupid bill that may even serve no real purpose other than a political stunt.

In fact, there is explicit language that curriculum must be followed.

Essentially, (from how I and others read it, including at least one lawyer) what it does is it makes it illegal for a teacher to fail a student that ARGUES against Evolution or even Climate Change. And it intends to promote a healthy dialogue on skepticism, essentially. Which...for me, is not the worst thing in the world, even if I believe Evolution is 1,000% fact. Having students debating this openly might actually have the reverse effect that these morons want.

The bill also says that the skeptical arguments have to be grounded in science as well. So it's not exactly a "Jesus Horse" argument at all. Although dubious science for sure, this is essentially about Climate Change skeptics. So it's less about Evolution, from what I can see. It's more about Climate Change.

So anyway, if a student has a 20 question test and answers "I don't believe in Evolution" on 10 of them, they are gonna fail. Period. Whereas if they answered "I don't believe in Evolution" on 6 of them and still got the other 14 correct, it would be illegal to fail them just because of their stance on Evolution otherwise. They can certainly still fail them for not doing the proper work in the classroom.

So I suppose it is legal (in OK) to fail a student, as we speak, for simply arguing against Evolution or Climate Change, because I suppose it is at the teacher's discretion? That's the only way this bill serves any purpose. This bill would make that illegal but the student still has to use the science on the classwork if the student wants to pass.

So...that's the way I understand it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:58 PM   #92
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Nobody around here is a bigger fan of science than me.
A bold statement, sir... a bold statement.

though I suppose "I'm a bigger fan of science than anybody else" would mean something much different
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:03 PM   #93
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Nobody around here is a bigger fan of science than me. And I am also a huge proponent of keeping God and/or religion out of classrooms. I'm also from Oklahoma, so I've been keeping up with this one. All that said, I actually read the bill. It has been discussed at length on a local forum. It doesn't exactly do what Mother Jones reported. Although it is certainly a stupid bill that may even serve no real purpose other than a political stunt.

In fact, there is explicit language that curriculum must be followed.

Essentially, (from how I and others read it, including at least one lawyer) what it does is it makes it illegal for a teacher to fail a student that ARGUES against Evolution or even Climate Change. And it intends to promote a healthy dialogue on skepticism, essentially. Which...for me, is not the worst thing in the world, even if I believe Evolution is 1,000% fact. Having students debating this openly might actually have the reverse effect that these morons want.

The bill also says that the skeptical arguments have to be grounded in science as well. So it's not exactly a "Jesus Horse" argument at all. Although dubious science for sure, this is essentially about Climate Change skeptics. So it's less about Evolution, from what I can see. It's more about Climate Change.

So anyway, if a student has a 20 question test and answers "I don't believe in Evolution" on 10 of them, they are gonna fail. Period. Whereas if they answered "I don't believe in Evolution" on 6 of them and still got the other 14 correct, it would be illegal to fail them just because of their stance on Evolution otherwise. They can certainly still fail them for not doing the proper work in the classroom.

So I suppose it is legal (in OK) to fail a student, as we speak, for simply arguing against Evolution or Climate Change, because I suppose it is at the teacher's discretion? That's the only way this bill serves any purpose. This bill would make that illegal but the student still has to use the science on the classwork if the student wants to pass.

So...that's the way I understand it.
The fact that they're even trying to introduce this supposedly benign piece of legislature should be seen as more than a little suspect though. A healthy exchange in ideas already exists. It's the basis of modern science. I see this as a bit of a back door approach; something to fall back on when a student submits a paper on Intelligent Design (I hate myself a little bit more every time I use that term). "Oh, well it's based in science, you can't fail him". Actually, it's not science, but they'll fight nail and tooth to try and convince people that should know otherwise. It just seems to me like a first step; insert a seemingly innocent, though completely unneeded bit of legislation, and build upon that. Their wedge strategies are clearly documented
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:25 PM   #94
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I'm no scientist, but doesn't science generally tend to work in paradigms? Scientists will continue to argue for one paradigm until another comes along that better explains the evidence, or provides a simpler explanation. Thus, people believed the celestial bodies revolved around the earth until it was found that it was much simpler to say that the earth revolves around the sun. We to this day can't say that for a fact, but it is a more fitting explanation for what we have observed.

Evolution is such a paradigm. It is not fact, as we can't say for sure, but it does explain fossil records, radiocarbon dating, diversity and relationships, and microevolution we have observed at the population level. So until a better explanation for all that comes along, we can accept it as if it were fact. Those who reject evolution must be willing to provide reasons more compelling than evolution. But the bottom line is, evolution is not fact, but it sounds about right given what we've observed. We believe it to be true, just as others may believe in creationism, but we can back up these beliefs. If creationists can scientifically explain themselves better than evolutionists, then I'm okay with it being taught in science classes. Otherwise, it has no place next to the more scientifically sound explanation.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:52 PM   #95
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The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. You can never say for certain that something is fact, I suppose... in the same way, you can't say for sure that we'll wake up tomorrow morning and gravity will take the day off. There's always room to probe deeper, but when heaps of new, previously unknown phenomena are discovered and those too fit into and prove the theory, we can say that evolution is as close to a fact as anything we know.
Otherwise, you're implying absolute fact doesn't exist and we're only ever creating new paradigms to differently describe the world. The shifts, as it were, are not just different; they are always better. Think of it more as the tweaking of a lens to bring a subject better into focus
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:03 PM   #96
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At the risk of sounding very, very ill-informed, a quick question for those who are more knowledgeable in scientific matters than I:

When people say there's an overwhelming mountain of evidence in favor of evolution, do they mean:

A) there's an overwhelming mountain of evidence to say that all life evolved from a single cell ;

or

B) there's an overwhelming mountain of evidence to say that all life has evolved to some extent?

Not sure if I'm communicating what I'm trying to ask sufficiently enough, but if anyone understands what I mean, thanks in advance!
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:10 PM   #97
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Both, really. Despite the fact that something like less than a 10th of a percent of all living things ever become fossils (and then you still have to find them), there is still clear evidence in the geological record of life moving from simple bacteria to more complex forms. We know for the first 2 billion years, all there was living on Earth were bacteria.
And the evidence of the latter is so abundant and broad it might be more useful to answer specific questions.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:12 PM   #98
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Yeah, I know the second is undeniably proven, I was just unsure whether the first was. Learn something new every day. Thanks!
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:14 PM   #99
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I'd like to hear both atheists' and religious folk's answers to this, though:

If evolution, in the sense that all things evolved from a single, simple cell, is true, can your (a) god coexist with that?
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:15 PM   #100
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It blows my mind that for 2 billion years, life was happy to just be. Next to no progress, evolutionarily speaking; just existing.
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