Pure, uneducated ignorance. Go religion!

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by anitram

Interesting.

I think most people try or strive to be good most of the time. And that is something that is innate and unrelated to religious practice or dogma.

I agree that most people try to be good than are already good. But also, there are some people who think they are good, but their "kindness" is more self-serving and gives them a chance to boast about themselves. Not to ruin the tone here, but just to make a point.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by anitram

Interesting.

I think most people try or strive to be good most of the time. And that is something that is innate and unrelated to religious practice or dogma.

Maybe that's a little more precise than what I said. I can go with that one.
My thinking was more along the lines of, as a species, we're programmed to be moral, social creatures. The idea that we're inherently ungood but for the good graces of religion is disgusting to me

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I agree that most people try to be good than are already good.

I don't understand the distinction here. If you're trying to be good, does that not indicate that you are a good person?

The topic feels a little unfocused and vague, maybe?

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I don't understand the distinction here. If you're trying to be good, does that not indicate that you are a good person?

The topic feels a little unfocused and vague, maybe?

No, I think it all depends on a person's motive and intentions. For example, if you are manipulating others into thinking you are a good, nice person, I wouldn't say you are good. You are a liar and a phony, deceiving others for your own gain. That is not being good.

Now if someone is truly trying to be good with all their hearts, I would say they have good intentions. But poor behavior may not be too far away, so it is difficult to say if that person is mainly a good person. Maybe their insecurities, anxiety or pain is causing them to be bad. But I also wouldn't say they are entirely bad. They just have fears or a lot of wounds that need to be confronted.

[IWasBored]

Which reminds me, the Salvation Army uses "Doing the most good" as a slogan. It's a contest? Hey, look, those guys are going good, charitable work over there. But us, well, we do the most good out of all of them!

I generally assume people are dirtbags until proven otherwise.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by IWasBored

Which reminds me, the Salvation Army uses "Doing the most good" as a slogan. It's a contest? Hey, look, those guys are going good, charitable work over there. But us, well, we do the most good out of all of them!

Actually, given the investigation CNN just did into the fifty worst charities, it *may* be a competition.

[iron yuppie]

I think a major issue with all the talk of Catholics believe X whereas Protestants believe Y is that none of us have any way to measure what a particular religious demographic believes. Someone may go to a Lutheran church every week and yet not buy into half or three-quarters of the party line. I would imagine that conceptualizations of sin vary by person, sometimes drastically.

[PhilsFan]

As a fake Catholic, I can tell you that there is essentially no "typical Catholic." There are so many wide-ranging thoughts and views that it's almost absurd that it's even a religion. It's more of a club than a religion at this point.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

As a fake Catholic, I can tell you that there is essentially no "typical Catholic." There are so many wide-ranging thoughts and views that it's almost absurd that it's even a religion. It's more of a club than a religion at this point.

I agree that some Catholics treat the Church like some social club than anything. For some people, it has a lot to do with their ethnicity. Meaning, being Catholic is akin to them being Italian, Irish, Filipino, Hispanic, etc. I used to live in an area with a large Italian population, and many attended mass every Sunday and put their kids through religious education. But they never seemed to care for God or anything. It was just carrying on family traditions.

It's the same with other religions. I know someone who left the Hasidic Jewish community, and told me many don't have a firm belief in God, but stay for the sake of their families. Whether that's by intimidation or they simply love their families is another story.

[Cactus Annie]

I'm in trouble with the debt collectors because I haven't paid my exorcist. They said that if I don't pay up I will be repossessed.

[BonosSaint]

I pulled this quote from Jive Turkey from another thread because I wanted to respond to it and this thread seemed more appropriate.

for me, it's one of the glaringly obvious proofs of it being man made (among many other things).
I assume you're still religious? Where does that leave you in regard to what god you believe in?

I am going to assume here that Jive Turkey has little or no religious upbringing (I'm not talking lack of knowledge or understanding or any unfamiliarity with text and writing. I mean the day to day or week to week or major holiday to major holiday experience with religious participation.) Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm making this assumption from posts but I could be wrong.

I grew up in a religious home and spent a lot of time in church. I vacillated between belief and nonbelief, but certainly believed that the Bible was man-created. I did not believe in an afterlife or that one needed a religious grounding to be a good (or a bad) person. I am a Darwinian. A Dawkinsian (?)

But I still carry that earlier background and teaching buried within--deeply, almost primal so it still has influence on me. I admire many of the cultural works the Bible inspired--art work, music, literature, particularly the use of the icons by secular artists.

While my rational mind dismisses it, much of my subconscious (artsy, emotional side) embraces it-- whether it is superstition, the sheer ecstasy of some of the music ("the minor fall, the major lift"), the archtypes, the validation of crying out in the wilderness even though you're pretty sure nobody is going to answer or even hear or the calm and quiet, the catharsis. It pushed me to see the dark side of things--including the concept of god with his own dark side, and contemplating that if there was god, what was the relationship to man? And what was our relationship to each other.

To me it was an enlightening puzzle, whether it was moot or not. It did not really matter whether there was a god or not. It was a framework, a reference point.

(Or perhaps I tend to believe things at 4 am that I don't believe at 6 am. I also shop at 4 am, so there is that consideration also)

I don't know other cultures very well, whether the fact that religion is all around other places as it is in the US. I suspect culturally we continue to be a religious nation (in its broadest sense) even among many secularists--spirituality, which is pretty much religion for nonbelievers, allows people to take the beneficial perks of religion.

Religion/faith created many emotions in me, anger not the least of them. But I carry much that I have used from it.

It was never about rationality to me. It was about hope and despair and how the light juxtaposes with the dark and what we can learn from it.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BonosSaint

I am going to assume here that Jive Turkey has little or no religious upbringing (I'm not talking lack of knowledge or understanding or any unfamiliarity with text and writing. I mean the day to day or week to week or major holiday to major holiday experience with religious participation.) Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm making this assumption from posts but I could be wrong.

My family is Protestant. I grew up believing in God (or at least I think I did... I remember occasionally crying at night as a little kid when I thought about the infinite nature of death, so maybe I never really believed, but had you asked me, I would say yes). I was baptized (and had to suffer through the vomit inducing ceremony of my nephew being baptized less than a year ago). Never attended church regularly, save for weddings and funerals. My Grandma does, however and my Dad's uncle is a priest. Both my parents believe in God. At least I'm pretty sure they do; it's not something we really discuss. I'm just going by past comments. I think my sister does too, not sure about my brother. He's probably the most intelligent person I know (He has a masters in Biochem and whatever the equivalent is in Law....Master of Laws? Upper 95th percentile on both his MCATs and LSATs. He went with the latter), so I assume he probably doesn't. My cousin who I was closest with as kids is Catholic, so I attended a lot of his ceremonies growing up too. His dad - my mothers brother - is very religious. He used to walk around the house reciting hymns as a kid.
So I wouldn't say I grew up without religion. I came to that on my own, though I guess you could argue that non practicing Protestants are about as nonreligious as you can get without being nonreligious
I'm not sure how any of that pertains to the rest of your post though. What did you mean by that?

[BonosSaint]

I stand corrected. I did not know your background. I like to know where someone is coming from when I discuss things. I think for a lot of people, the icons and the emotional connections with the music and the symbolism in literature, etc. may still exert a powerful influence on them long after they have stopped believing. I don't think that people without that background have that connection as primally.

So I was testing your experience against someone who retained almost subconscious connections long after the rational mind rejected belief and the limbo that can be created.

Personally, I can't limit it to rational or irrational, intelligent or not. This need or desire to believe in something with no evidence it exists fascinates me--not contemptuously--and that desire is what I am trying to get a handle on--not the belief system itself, which doesn't really interest me. I'm always monitoring and questioning myself. I'm my own best subject. I'm the person I'm trying to satisfy with what I question.

[Jive Turkey]

To be honest, despite being somewhat surrounded by it, religion still always felt foreign to me. I certainly wasn't immersed in it. But I can understand the stamp it leaves on a person; in a weird way, I sometimes still identify as a protestant.
I'm fascinated with religion though. And I actually love much of the art and architecture that was commissioned by it. There's a rich history to be delved into

[Cactus Annie]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Upper 95th percentile on both his MCATs and LSATs. He went with the latter), so I assume he probably doesn't.

I don't know what are MCAT's or LSAT's, and that's not because I'm thick, it's because I'm not American. I don't know what the British equivalent would be.
However, the point I would like to make is the fact that there are no correlation between belief and lack of intelligence. Both our leaders are highly educated Christian believers. Obama won a scholarship for Harvard and I think he is a Presbyterian. David Cameron is an Anglican Christian and he achieved a first from Oxford University.

Of course they are plenty of stupid believers, but just as many dumb atheists.

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally Posted by Cactus Annie

I don't know what are LSAT's

my cousin had that once. apparently you get a really bad rash on your...

[Cactus Annie]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey
I couldn't care less about BVS' "respect". Instead of actually keeping up with an argument, he goes into hiding, then throws around little comments when nothing of substance is being discussed. Worst poster on the site.... second worst

So you don't think I am the worst poster on here? Thank you Jive Turkey

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

Sorz, misread. If we're going to have a religious debate, it's necessary to care about the particulars. Note the result of trying to project Protestant beliefs about grace onto Catholics.

I think I know who the first worst poster is.

Schloop-a-Doop must really hate atheists, they're so negative all the time.

Schloop-a-Doop doesn't exist, I've just checked

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Cactus Annie

the point I would like to make is the fact that there are no correlation between belief and lack of intelligence.

.

There's quite a strong correlation, in fact. Yes, there are exceptions

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Cactus Annie

So you don't think I am the worst poster on here? Thank you Jive Turkey

[Cactus Annie]

Kenneth Miller is a cell biologist and molecular biologist. He is also a Catholic