Pure, uneducated ignorance. Go religion!

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

If that's not for you, that's fine -- Jesus Himself said He didn't come for the people who had it all figured out, but for those who didn't. But let's not treat with derision and scorn those who are looking for wisdom in traditional places, just because you disagree with the source material.

Good point, nathan1977.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I don't believe anybody's all that good...

Really? I find that kind of a statement to be very absolutist.

Is it an extreme form of "we are all sinners" - because that I've come across in my religious upbringing, but it was never taken to the extreme that nobody is all that good.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

I'm not sure what churches you've been to, but I've never been to a church that does this... Most people that I know that believe along these lines that Nathan talks about are older. My thought is that its developed through years of trying to justify certain things to themselves.

Original Sin is the basis of Christianity. I'm not sure what churches you've been attending

[LemonMelon]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Your personal enlightenment is fantastic...for you. Plenty of people need the wisdom of someone outside themselves in order to help them sort out issues like right and wrong, healthy and unhealthy choices, show them how to live a life of service and generosity, etc.

Well, jive wasn't enlightened from birth or anything. Maybe he was enlightened about creatures, he's pretty far ahead of the game there.

[bono_212]

So when Hobbes says that people are inherently evil, it's OK, but if a Christian says it it's dogma?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Your personal enlightenment is fantastic...for you. Plenty of people need the wisdom of someone outside themselves in order to help them sort out issues like right and wrong, healthy and unhealthy choices, show them how to live a life of service and generosity, etc. I don't buy the inherent arrogance of those who act like religion is a collection of old dusty books that everyone would be better off without and who treat with scorn anyone who gains wisdom from said books, any more than I buy the arrogance of those who act like religion is a club that only a qualified few (and usually only the people who look/think/sound like them) have access to.

If the story of human history is anything, it's that we are pretty damn far from perfect, and (if we're being honest) pretty shitty a lot of the time. Sometimes the most humble position to take is that we don't have it all figured out, and we could use some help.

If that's not for you, that's fine -- Jesus Himself said He didn't come for the people who had it all figured out, but for those who didn't. But let's not treat with derision and scorn those who are looking for wisdom in traditional places, just because you disagree with the source material.

Well you were the one that brought up subjectivity, as if I exist in some sort of state of moral chaos. My reply was a direct response to that, so don't get your panties in a twist. I hate to break it to you, but getting your morals from a book is no less subjective.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by bono_212

So when Hobbes says that people are inherently evil, it's OK, but if a Christian says it it's dogma?

Are people defending Hobbes in here? I don't think it's ok when he says it either

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

Well, jive wasn't enlightened from birth or anything. Maybe he was enlightened about creatures, he's pretty far ahead of the game there.

I know a great deal about creatures

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Are people defending Hobbes in here? I don't think it's ok when he says it either

I think bono_212 mentioned him just to point out the seemingly Christian/religion bashing here.

As whether people can be inherently good or evil, that all depends on various angles and situations. No one is totally good from birth to death, and unless you are a born psychopath, the same can be said about being evil.

That said, I do believe humans do fall short. Not that I believe in original sin the way Christianity talks about it, but we are born flawed. Human beings just aren't perfect, and there's so much conflict and trials in life and it is rare to know the perfect decision in each case. Then again, that is because those conflicts and trials are very complex with long lists of pros and cons.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I think bono_212 mentioned him just to point out the seemingly Christian/religion bashing here.

AKA a strawman argument.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by anitram

AKA a strawman argument.

Even so, but I felt the need to clarify what was said.

[bono_212]

All I was saying is that it's been a pretty standard way of thinking for a very long time, religious or not, agree or not. It's one of two schools of thought on the general nature of people: Without rules, we would all resort to theft, violence, what have you. Or, we wouldn't. Wasn't suggesting that anyone in here specifically agreed with Hobbes, what I was saying was that to get up in arms over Nathan saying it as though only religious people felt that way is inherently flawed.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Original Sin is the basis of Christianity. I'm not sure what churches you've been attending

Being a sinner or having sinned and "not being good" are not the same thing, by any stretch.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

Being a sinner or having sinned and "not being good" are not the same thing, by any stretch.

Being a sinner is being inherently "not good". No stretch required

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by bono_212

All I was saying is that it's been a pretty standard way of thinking for a very long time, religious or not, agree or not. It's one of two schools of thought on the general nature of people: Without rules, we would all resort to theft, violence, what have you. Or, we wouldn't. Wasn't suggesting that anyone in here specifically agreed with Hobbes, what I was saying was that to get up in arms over Nathan saying it as though only religious people felt that way is inherently flawed.

I didn't say only religious people feel that way. I was merely responding to the specific case

[LemonMelon]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Being a sinner is being inherently "not good". No stretch required

Ah no, not quite. "Goodness," while referenced a number of times in the New Testament, is an irrelevant construct in Christianity. Practically speaking, people aren't judged by whether or not they're good, they're judged by the belief system they accept and endorse. There are numerous figures in the Bible that Christians are meant to respect that by no stretch are "better" people than some atheists I've known. While you can find scriptures that state that all goodness comes from God, I don't think it's asserted that only Christians can be good people. Certainly, there were moral, upright people hanging around long before the Christian church came to be.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Being a sinner is being inherently "not good". No stretch required

No it doesn't.

Being a sinner is being inherently not perfect.

One can have lied and still be good.

You're making stretches again in order to force your narrow definitions into your small box.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Well you were the one that brought up subjectivity, as if I exist in some sort of state of moral chaos. My reply was a direct response to that, so don't get your panties in a twist.

Oh, I didn't. You're the one who referred to religious people as following an "arcane" set of rules (even if you were referencing another post), and extolling atheists for having no such need. I just felt the need to twist your nose about it a little bit.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

You're making stretches again in order to force your narrow definitions into your small box.

hahahahaha

When you actually start hanging around conversations long enough to make a point, I'll start respecting the things you say

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I just felt the need to twist your nose about it a little bit.

Well if that's what it was about, then I can certainly take a little ribbing

For the record, I don't think religious people need those arcane teachings either. I wasn't just puffing up atheists