2861U2
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Reporter confronts Michael Moore hypocrisy at Occupy event - YouTube
Good work by that reporter. Sad answer by Moore.
Good work by that reporter. Sad answer by Moore.
Pro-tax Occupation Protests Held Across U.S. (O.W.S. Thread)
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Jeannieco
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Occupy Wall Street Has Jumped the Shark | RedState
Occupy Wall Street Has Jumped the Shark
Like the writer, after some initial posts I sat out a few weeks to see if OWS could pull themselves into a legitimate political movement. Just hearing the spokesmen for Occupy Oakland talk prior to the events of Wed was enough to convince me the answer was no. The mainstream media can cheerlead and explain away only so much of this.
It's not just the violence and destruction of personal property that will disgust 99% of the 99%, but the Marxist rhetoric and sheer stupidity of so much of it:
Shock!! The Peoples Court found them guilty.
Too bad, we face some huge hurdles as a country. I too think the country is not headed in the right direction. I too would like to see the cozy relationship between government and corporations curtailed. We could use some fresh ideas.
Vandalism, Marxism and street theatre are not the solutions 99% of Americans are looking for however. Then again, maybe that's all the Left has to offer at this point. I'd love to be proven wrong on that point.
Wow, generalize much?
Anacharists do represent what OWS is about. The camps and marches have been peaceful for the most part except for Wed. in Oakland when a few anarchists ran away with it and got violent. Weren't you the one whose head exploded when people were accusing the TPer's as being racist becasue quite a few nut jobs joined the ranks with hateful signs of President Obama?
corianderstem
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Sounds like the anarchists who helped turn the Seattle WTO protests into the Seattle WTO riots.
Canadiens1131
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Take it easy on him, he just found an article he liked on one of his GOP websites and decided it fit his preconceived narrative well enough.Wow, generalize much?
Vlad n U 2
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Aren't the Democrats basically centre-right in nature? They sure as hell ain't left from what I have seen.
INDY500
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Wow, generalize much?
Let's set the vandalism aside then.
Americans aren't interested in general strikes, blocked bridges and roads, Marxist or anti-capitalist economics, anonymous protesters wearing masks or scarves, contempt for police, 60's nostalgia, or the lawlessness of "occupying" something that isn't yours.
Why are more people not interested in Marxist or anti-capitalist economics? I wouldn't consider myself a great follower of Marx but he wasn't thick and a lot of what he discussed makes a decent amount of sense, as do the many writings Adam Smith et al. and all who followed along the capitalistic path. But capitalism is a weird kind of holy grail to have when it is something of no particular moral value. A certain amount of contempt for authority I believe to be reasonably healthy (but then part of that is my background being from Belfast), the police are an extension of the government no? Which a whole range of people distrust? (I'm not saying police are inherently bad and I fully recognise the need for them and it's a tough old job.)
Is the social contract between the government and the people broken when enough people distrust or believe the authority that exists in the land is against them?
I know the situation in the states is different to what it is here and as a nation you are more to the right than we are in Europe, that's fine and you do lots better in the states than we have ever done. I do though think on a global scale we need to think harder on how we put democracy into practice, as I don't think what we have now is the best it can be.
Is the social contract between the government and the people broken when enough people distrust or believe the authority that exists in the land is against them?
I know the situation in the states is different to what it is here and as a nation you are more to the right than we are in Europe, that's fine and you do lots better in the states than we have ever done. I do though think on a global scale we need to think harder on how we put democracy into practice, as I don't think what we have now is the best it can be.
Vlad n U 2
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Vlad n U 2
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Marx had a pretty awesome beard, you gotta give him that.
PhilsFan
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kramwest1
has a
INDY500
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Aygo
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Aren't the Democrats basically centre-right in nature? They sure as hell ain't left from what I have seen.
In Europe, in some countries, Democrats are seen/perceptioned as right, and Republicans as exteme-right. Most policies chosen by american Democrat Party and respective politicians if they were implemented in european countries would be perceptioned by people here in Europe as right (even as extreme-right) policies.
It's all a question of political marketing. For example, most european parties called "Socialist Party" (or "Labourist Party") aren't socialist at all. Portuguese, Spanish, French, Slovenian, Greek "Socialist Party" are, most of all, parties of the Third Way and, in some cases, they're social-democrat parties.
In Portugal there's also a party called Social-Democrat Party, but I guess they have no idea that social-democracy is a center-left ideology and their party is a center-right party composed, not by social-democrats, but by Conservatives (in social way of living) and Liberalists (in economics).
Vlad n U 2
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Ah yes, I get what you mean, we have the same thing going on in Australia, with the Liberal party being conservative and the Labor party being ... conservative, but not to the level of the former.
Aygo
Rock n' Roll Doggie
In fact, european opinion-makers say that Blair was the "firestarter" of the shift that Labourist, Social-democrat (that call them selves Socialist for marketing purposes) parties made from center-left to center/Third Way/emptiness in the 1990's/2000's.
These kind of parties now understand the mistake and are being forced to get back to their center-left origins. The problem is that many of these parties lost credit and are having trouble about being seen as center-left again.
In Germany, the SPD [Social-Democrat Party/center-left/no marketing in the name] had to turn center-left again and make real oposition to Merkel's "club". The pressure was so big and their loss of credibility was so big that, in some German states, to stop Merkel's party to get "there", SPD was forced to Govern in coalition with... The Green Ecologist Party (left/center-left) that had a huge boost in popularity (about from 8 to 20-24%).
In France, the PS spans so many and diverse kind of people (old fashion socialists, social-democrats, third way-ists, centrists, social-liberalists, etc) that is having lots of trouble to redefine it self. The only thing that saves PS and that will make it will 2012 elections is the huge loss of credibility that Sarkozy is having. If it wasn't for Sarkozy, french PS would lose again.
The same problem has the center-left italian party (they don't use "socialist", "communist", "social-democrat", "christian-democrat" terminologies there), but they'll will in 2012 only because Berlusconni is being held by a tiny string.
In Portugal, Greece and Spain, because of having been Third Way for a long time, and because of having been forced to implement severe austerity plans, pseudo-socialist parties are having very bad results whether in elections or in polls. In June, center-left lost the government and had only 28% (38% for center-right). In Spain, elections will happen next November 20th and PSOE will have its biggest defeat (30% against 47% of the right-wing party). The response is the shift to right governments again.
In Greece, opinion polls give only 19% to PASOK, which explains Papandreou's last actions these last 10 days. But Greece's situation is so complicated now that no one knows what's really gonna happen (there's even the possibility of an imminent coup d'État).
On the other hand, the "new left", the "neo-socialist", the ecologist and the "left confederations" are having an increasement of popularity. Examples:
- the Ecologists and the "Pirate" parties in Germany (19% and 9% in opinion polls, respectively);
- the Communists, the neo-Socialists and the Anti-Capitalist parties in Greece (14%, 9% and 4% in opinion polls, respectively, which represents the double or triple than what they had in 2009);
- the neo-socialists and the communists having a soft increase in popularity in France;
- the increasement of Socialists and Social-democrats in Denmark in recent elections, leading them to a coalition government and the shift from center-right to center-left.
INDY500
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When your continent's political parties are made up of Socialists, neo-Socialists, Social-democrats, Greens, anti-Capitalist, third way-ists, social-liberalists and Communists...
...I now understand why you consider the Tea Party crazy.
...I now understand why you consider the Tea Party crazy.
Irvine511
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ever spend much time outside of the country, INDY?
Aygo
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When did I say that?
INDY500
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Sorry, not you singular but you plural as in all our European commentators.
Something I do admire about US politics is that your choice between parties is much more stark, even if it is a choice between the extreme right and centre right. Here it can get a bit more confusing, as you often have the right here using left rhetoric, such as the Tory support for NHS, to get into power, but when in power they employ more right wing policies. The left at least under new Labour started a lot of the right wing policies when they were in power that the Tories have simply continued.
There are differences but they are more subtle I suppose between them, which is maybe why at least in the UK we are turned off by politics than before as our choices are less stark. We all generally agree the NHS for instance is a good thing, there's little disagreement on rights for the gay community etc. So most are socially to the left.
I'm not going to be disingenuous and say that I think a lot of the rhetoric I hear from the right of the States is reasoned, but what I really fail to understand is the unflinching adherence to the ideology, there aren't as many subtleties of opinion, it's your either for it or against America. I suppose I've only seen this in more recent years, where it appears the rhetoric has become more extreme.
There are differences but they are more subtle I suppose between them, which is maybe why at least in the UK we are turned off by politics than before as our choices are less stark. We all generally agree the NHS for instance is a good thing, there's little disagreement on rights for the gay community etc. So most are socially to the left.
I'm not going to be disingenuous and say that I think a lot of the rhetoric I hear from the right of the States is reasoned, but what I really fail to understand is the unflinching adherence to the ideology, there aren't as many subtleties of opinion, it's your either for it or against America. I suppose I've only seen this in more recent years, where it appears the rhetoric has become more extreme.
Canadiens1131
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There is noting enviable about US politics since the 2000 election. Especially not the choice between parties.
PhilsFan
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This is as asinine as it gets.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
what has happened over the past 15 years, and increased with the internet, is the conflation of politics with identity, that it's not about the issues, it's about where you stand on the issues. it doesn't matter if your opinion is a good one, or even a remotely informed one. it just matters that you have one.
Confirmation bias also seems to have increased with the internet. It's rare for people to actively seek out information which may contradict their stance.
It's probably also a side effect of the two party system though, as surely political opinion at the grass roots must have a wider range of views, than can be adequately represented at state or national level. With more parties the extreme sorts would gravitate to their own party, leaving a more reasonable centre majority.
It's probably also a side effect of the two party system though, as surely political opinion at the grass roots must have a wider range of views, than can be adequately represented at state or national level. With more parties the extreme sorts would gravitate to their own party, leaving a more reasonable centre majority.
financeguy
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Inhabitants of countries with normal and well-developed political systems tend to regard the Tea Party as crazy.
Sarkozy is the elected French president. Sarkozy, the paid-up friend of big business, the former mayor of the wealthiest district of Paris, the guy that relished watercannoning brown-skinned youths back in 2005. If you think he and his party are on the left, you need your head examined.
Actually, come to think of it, most, if not all, of the larger European countries, and a fair smattering of the smaller ones also, have capitalist-friendly conservative parties running their governments at this point.
So, I'm afraid that we cannot blame the financial crisis on Europeans' voters arrant stupidity and childishness in electing "a motley collection of Socialists, neo-Socialists, Social-democrats, Greens, anti-Capitalist, third way-ists, social-liberalists and Communists" into office!
No, Indy500, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the jury will be out soon, and I'll wager they will not find the long-haired hippie green commie students to blame.
