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Old 11-05-2011, 01:38 PM   #321
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ever spend much time outside of the country, INDY?
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:44 PM   #322
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When your continent's political parties are made up of Socialists, neo-Socialists, Social-democrats, Greens, anti-Capitalist, third way-ists, social-liberalists and Communists...

...I now understand why you consider the Tea Party crazy.
When did I say that?
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:26 PM   #323
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When did I say that?
Sorry, not you singular but you plural as in all our European commentators.
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:55 PM   #324
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Something I do admire about US politics is that your choice between parties is much more stark, even if it is a choice between the extreme right and centre right. Here it can get a bit more confusing, as you often have the right here using left rhetoric, such as the Tory support for NHS, to get into power, but when in power they employ more right wing policies. The left at least under new Labour started a lot of the right wing policies when they were in power that the Tories have simply continued.

There are differences but they are more subtle I suppose between them, which is maybe why at least in the UK we are turned off by politics than before as our choices are less stark. We all generally agree the NHS for instance is a good thing, there's little disagreement on rights for the gay community etc. So most are socially to the left.

I'm not going to be disingenuous and say that I think a lot of the rhetoric I hear from the right of the States is reasoned, but what I really fail to understand is the unflinching adherence to the ideology, there aren't as many subtleties of opinion, it's your either for it or against America. I suppose I've only seen this in more recent years, where it appears the rhetoric has become more extreme.
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:40 PM   #325
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Something I do admire about US politics is that your choice between parties is much more stark
There is noting enviable about US politics since the 2000 election. Especially not the choice between parties.
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:49 PM   #326
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Admire is probably the wrong choice of word, it's more that there is a choice to be made. Here they are fairly much the same on so much, it makes any election an inane process.
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:09 PM   #327
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When your continent's political parties are made up of Socialists, neo-Socialists, Social-democrats, Greens, anti-Capitalist, third way-ists, social-liberalists and Communists...

...I now understand why you consider the Tea Party crazy.
This is as asinine as it gets.
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:48 PM   #328
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what I really fail to understand is the unflinching adherence to the ideology, there aren't as many subtleties of opinion, it's your either for it or against America. I suppose I've only seen this in more recent years, where it appears the rhetoric has become more extreme.


what has happened over the past 15 years, and increased with the internet, is the conflation of politics with identity, that it's not about the issues, it's about where you stand on the issues. it doesn't matter if your opinion is a good one, or even a remotely informed one. it just matters that you have one.
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:33 PM   #329
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Confirmation bias also seems to have increased with the internet. It's rare for people to actively seek out information which may contradict their stance.

It's probably also a side effect of the two party system though, as surely political opinion at the grass roots must have a wider range of views, than can be adequately represented at state or national level. With more parties the extreme sorts would gravitate to their own party, leaving a more reasonable centre majority.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:20 PM   #330
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When your continent's political parties are made up of Socialists, neo-Socialists, Social-democrats, Greens, anti-Capitalist, third way-ists, social-liberalists and Communists...

...I now understand why you consider the Tea Party crazy.
Inhabitants of countries with normal and well-developed political systems tend to regard the Tea Party as crazy.

Sarkozy is the elected French president. Sarkozy, the paid-up friend of big business, the former mayor of the wealthiest district of Paris, the guy that relished watercannoning brown-skinned youths back in 2005. If you think he and his party are on the left, you need your head examined.

Actually, come to think of it, most, if not all, of the larger European countries, and a fair smattering of the smaller ones also, have capitalist-friendly conservative parties running their governments at this point.

So, I'm afraid that we cannot blame the financial crisis on Europeans' voters arrant stupidity and childishness in electing "a motley collection of Socialists, neo-Socialists, Social-democrats, Greens, anti-Capitalist, third way-ists, social-liberalists and Communists" into office!

No, Indy500, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the jury will be out soon, and I'll wager they will not find the long-haired hippie green commie students to blame.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:25 PM   #331
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Something I do admire about US politics is that your choice between parties is much more stark, even if it is a choice between the extreme right and centre right. Here it can get a bit more confusing, as you often have the right here using left rhetoric, such as the Tory support for NHS, to get into power, but when in power they employ more right wing policies. The left at least under new Labour started a lot of the right wing policies when they were in power that the Tories have simply continued.
At this point, practically the only thing I admire about the US system is that a libertarian alternative is available, which is not the case in Europe. But the US libertarians are about as politically relevant as the Trotskyite/Socialist Worker faction are in Europe.

I certainly don't admire the way that in US politics, there are only two large parties - both deeply, deeply in hock to big business.

By drawing attention to the (comparative) political diversity that exists in Europe, as Indy500 has done, US republicans just turn themselves into an even bigger laughing stock than they are already.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:08 PM   #332
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I worry i'm becoming paranoid, with how much I am discovering that politics and big business works and as the saying goes they are playing with loaded dice. When your leaving the prosperity of a nation up to the vagaries of a gambler's guess on the stock markets and other companies financial dealings making more money from money, it just strikes me as something truly insane. I'll get on with my life the best I can, but I am deeply disillusioned with how these entrenched systems work, and it's not that I would like a return to some ancient barter system, i'm just frustrated we haven't found something better.

Too much the idealism of youth?
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:17 PM   #333
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I worry i'm becoming paranoid with how much I am discovering that politics and big business works and are the saying goes playing with loaded dice. When your leaving the prosperity of a nation up to the vagaries of a gambler's guess on the stock markets and other companies financial dealings making more money from money, it just strikes me as something truly insane. I'll get on with my life the best I can, but I am deeply disillusioned with how these entrenched systems work, and it's not that I would like a return to some ancient barter system, i'm just frustrated we haven't found something better.

Too much the idealism of youth?
Far from speaking to the idealism of youth, your first instinct was correct.

The current system is unviable, and is indeed collapsing in front of our eyes. This was entirely predictable, and indeed predicted. By Karl Marx, amongst others.

In years to come, your grandkids will ask you where were you during the revolutions of 2009-2012? Were you on the side of the 1%, or the 99%?
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:19 PM   #334
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Take it easy on him, he just found an article he liked on one of his GOP websites and decided it fit his preconceived narrative well enough.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:37 PM   #335
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I personally believe strongly that something's gonna happen in Europe very soon. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I'm almost 100% sure something like what's happening in North Africa islamic countries is gonna happen to.

We only have to think that History repeats itself. Specially in the XX century.
We had all these coup d'États for fascist, authoritary regimes in a few years: Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, etc etc etc.
Then, you had Greece's coup d'États in 1967 and in 1974.
A year after you had the Mai '68 in France.
Then, in 1974, a coup d'État in Portugal.
A year after the same with Spain.

Greece today is just at the border of a military coup d'État. People got numb with the severe austerity, but military are not. That's why this last week, Papandreou replaced the military "chiefs" because this event is imminent. He knows it.
If a coup d'État happens soon in Greece, I think that it may spread to countries like Portugal, Italy, France or Spain, for example... And this time, it'll be like in North Africa: the spreading will happen just in a matter of days/weeks instead of years (like in the 1970's). If it'll change for a good situation? I don't know. But knowing Europe's personality since it exists, I stopped calling "crazy" those who claim that the possibility of a new big conflict inside Europe is not vain and it gets closer as the situation degradates.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:56 PM   #336
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It's not really crazy when you have the leaders of Europe mentioning the possibility of war, such as Merkel.

There has been a major conflict roughly every 100 years involving the major players of the world at that time. The first and second world war in the 1900s, the Napoleonic wars, the wars of the Spanish and Austrian succession in the early 1700s, the Thirty Years War of the early 1600s...on and on it goes.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:10 PM   #337
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I personally believe strongly that something's gonna happen in Europe very soon. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I'm almost 100% sure something like what's happening in North Africa islamic countries is gonna happen to.

We only have to think that History repeats itself. Specially in the XX century.
We had all these coup d'États for fascist, authoritary regimes in a few years: Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, etc etc etc.
Then, you had Greece's coup d'États in 1967 and in 1974.
A year after you had the Mai '68 in France.
Then, in 1974, a coup d'État in Portugal.
A year after the same with Spain.

Greece today is just at the border of a military coup d'État. People got numb with the severe austerity, but military are not. That's why this last week, Papandreou replaced the military "chiefs" because this event is imminent. He knows it.
If a coup d'État happens soon in Greece, I think that it may spread to countries like Portugal, Italy, France or Spain, for example... And this time, it'll be like in North Africa: the spreading will happen just in a matter of days/weeks instead of years (like in the 1970's). If it'll change for a good situation? I don't know. But knowing Europe's personality since it exists, I stopped calling "crazy" those who claim that the possibility of a new big conflict inside Europe is not vain and it gets closer as the situation degradates.
Yes, the global revolution has already started.

This is why it is so important to ignore the globalist/neocon/neoliberal propagandists of the mainstream media, and to take to the streets if necessary to defend our rights.

Everyone has the right to liberty, human rights regardless of gender, race, creed and sexuality, freedom of expression, freedom from oppression from the jackbooted troops of the fascist-capitalist-bankster elite.

The 1% have decreed that our pension funds will be raided and our taxes will be increased in order to enrich themselves and profit off of our misery, to pay off their bad gambling debts - and it is moral, and indeed necessary, for us, the 99%, to remove the current structure, to create a better system - and this will happen.

Victory to the revolution! To the barricades, citoyens!
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:22 PM   #338
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Yes, the global revolution has already started.

This is why it is so important to ignore the globalist/neocon/neoliberal propagandists of the mainstream media, and to take to the streets if necessary to defend our rights.

Everyone has the right to liberty, human rights regardless of gender, race, creed and sexuality, freedom of expression, freedom from oppression from the jackbooted troops of the fascist-capitalist-bankster elite.

Victory to the revolution! To the barricades, citoyens!
And don't rely on the media to help you out on rebellion or future revolutions/change of state. Media doesn't care if you're hungry or not... Unless it brings profit$ to them.

Sometimes, I'm shocked by the coverage and the protection the media gives to the political/financial powers. At the same sime that media sleeps in the same bed and have crazy sex with the political/financial power, it pretends to be informing and to unmask things that are irrelevant.

I have been having news from Greece, for example, by searching in the international media. For example, NO ONE talks about the opinion polls of hypothetic elections in Greece. NO ONE. I had to go to greek websites and it was hard to find that info. Why? Because the results are shocking too and the media are afraid that other countries may have similar movements by "watching" it. It's been hidden or devalued somehow the danger of an imminent Coup D'État in Greece too, for the same reason and because, the day that will happen, countries like Germany and France (commanded by their neo-fascist leaders) would send their troops and their financial threats right in the next day (because their banks told them to do so).
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:25 PM   #339
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And don't rely on the media to help you out. Media doesn't care if you're hungry or not... Unless it brings profit$ to them.

Sometimes, I'm shocked by the coverage and the protection the media gives to the political/financial powers. At the same sime that media sleeps in the same bed and have crazy sex with the political/financial power, it pretends to be informing and to unmask things that are irrelevant.

I have been having news from Greece, for example, by searching in the international media. For example, NO ONE talks about the opinion polls of hypothetic elections in Greece. NO ONE. I had to go to greek websites and it was hard to find that info. Why? Because the results are shocking too and the media are afraid that other countries may have similar movements by "watching" it. It's been hidden or devalued somehow the danger of an imminent Coup D'État in Greece too, for the same reason and because, the day that will happen, countries like Germany and France (commanded by their neo-fascist leaders) would send their troops and their financial threats right in the next day (because their banks told them to do so).
Yeah I know. I am sceptical of any news I hear about Greece as presented by the globalist/neoliberal media, and counsel people to go to Greece and find out for themselves. The opinion on the ground is indeed very different from how it is presented by the globalist/neoliberal media.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:33 PM   #340
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One of my friends has a Greek girlfriend who is a teacher in Athens. She has handed him most of her savings and she planning to move here after Christmas. Word being things are quite bad.
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