Pro-tax Occupation Protests Held Across U.S. (O.W.S. Thread)

[LJT]

It really does sadden me that the best system for creating prosperity in society that we have come up with still leaves so many disenfranchised and remains so undemocratic at its core.

I know Greece leaving the Eurozone to default would mess things up (but then things sound like they're are not going to get any better anyway) but Germany and France turning round and threatening Greece and saying you can't have a national vote on something that is going to affect everyone's lives in that country is just nuts. So much for a national right to determine your own future.

Greed and avarice are built into the system with the constant pursuit of growth. 'More money!' is the best we have come up with.

We need a serious group think about what is actually the best way to govern and promote prosperity around the world. It's much more than just choosing a party to vote for.

The more I read the more how economics works and how it interacts with politics, the more insane our current systems seem.

[Canadiens1131]

To paraphrase Winston Churchill

''Democracy is the worst form of government, except for the rest of them''

[LJT]

Aye true that it is, but there must be a better way of implementing democratic values in the world than what we have, as things stand at the moment it seems democracy is the last thing on politicians and corporations minds.

[Canadiens1131]

Drastic.
Campaign.
Finance.
Reform.

But it will never happen in the U.S.

[Jeannieco]

Originally Posted by Canadiens1131

Drastic.
Campaign.
Finance.
Reform.

But it will never happen in the U.S.

I have been saying this for years and years......It's the only issue because at it's core is the root of all the corruption.

If people keep rising up and protesting like this, I think things will change. But slowly.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by anitram

Some of us must be a real mystery to you.

Who is "us"?

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Canadiens1131

Land of the free!!!

Don't you believe in the freedom from having your business vandalized by marauding bands of protesters?
The respect of private property rights?
The freedom to lawfully conduct commerce?
The freedom to move around without encountering illegally obstructed bridges, streets or ports?
The freedom of cities to police public areas and large crowds while still observing freedoms of speech and assembly?

This is what will turn the people against OSW. Reform is not won in the street.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Who is "us"?

People who move out of our parents' house, get jobs, have families, pay bills and taxes (sometimes very high ones), own cars and homes and so on and don't turn into your brand of conservative.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by anitram

People who move out of our parents' house, get jobs, have families, pay bills and taxes (sometimes very high ones), own cars and homes and so on and don't turn into your brand of conservative.

Hope you realize I was only jocularly responding to Canadiens hypothesis:

These folks will get white-collar jobs as temps and slowly have the liberal tendencies drained out of them as they grow older and become paranoid of losing their small piece of the middle class pie to poor people. They may even die conservatives.

And so the cycle begins again.

I live in a college town, I'm quite aware that otherwise intelligent and responsible citizens can be politically liberal. (also typed with a mirthful spirit)

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by yolland

Capital New York, Nov. 1

Pretty disingenuous IMO. I get the argument that the legislation he's presumably referring to (the 1977 CRA) had an unintended side effect of giving banks dangerous incentives to make high-risk loans, but the subprime market was dominated by private lenders to whom the CRA didn't apply, not "Fannie and Freddie" who were insurers not lenders. It winds up sounding like he's absolving the banks of responsibility for treating the CRA as a call to engage in criminally reckless banking practices--"Congress made them do it."

That unscrupulous and predatory loans were being pursued is not in question. It's illegality unfortunately can be. Bankers may be ethically challenged but they aren't stupid. They wouldn't as a matter of practice make loans for $400,000 homes to someone making $30,000 a year. But it did happen.

The fact that Fannie & Freddie were government-backed (insured) allowed loans, that were never going to be repaid, to be aggregated for sale in the secondary market as mortgage-backed securities.
Also, in many cities, immense political pressure was being applied to banks by ACORN, Jesse Jackson and class action lawsuits to loosen financial requirements and lower lending standards. Congressional pressure being applied to banks to meet housing goals or face penalties.

That, plus artificially low interest rates, political corruption and consumer greed is how, in 200 words, a program to end housing discrimination ended up as the largest default in world history.

[INDY500]

Occupy Wall Street Has Jumped the Shark | RedState

Occupy Wall Street Has Jumped the Shark



Like the writer, after some initial posts I sat out a few weeks to see if OWS could pull themselves into a legitimate political movement. Just hearing the spokesmen for Occupy Oakland talk prior to the events of Wed was enough to convince me the answer was no. The mainstream media can cheerlead and explain away only so much of this.

It's not just the violence and destruction of personal property that will disgust 99% of the 99%, but the Marxist rhetoric and sheer stupidity of so much of it:

On November 3rd, the People, the 99 percent, will hold A People’s Hearing of Goldman Sachs in Liberty Square Park and march on Goldman Sachs! The people will bring to justice perhaps the single most egregious perpetrator of economic fraud and corruption in the United States. The Hearing will include testimonials from individuals directly affected by Goldman’s fraudulent manipulation of financial markets, including victims of housing foreclosures, pension losses, public lay-offs and untenable student debt.

The proceedings will also include expert analysis from Ralph Nader, Cornel West and Chris Hedges. Following the 99-minute hearing the people will decide on a fair and deliverable verdict via our own process of consensus-based direct democracy – and we intend to deliver it ourselves – to the headquarters of Goldman Sachs at 200 West Street, eight blocks from Liberty Square. We will ask for something our judicial and legislative systems have so far failed to deliver – the return of billions of taxpayer dollars to the 99 percent and criminal sentences for those Goldman Sachs executives who carried out the fraud. The event will be broadcast live via the Occupy Wall Street Livestream, among other public media outlets.

Shock!! The Peoples Court found them guilty.

Too bad, we face some huge hurdles as a country. I too think the country is not headed in the right direction. I too would like to see the cozy relationship between government and corporations curtailed. We could use some fresh ideas.

Vandalism, Marxism and street theatre are not the solutions 99% of Americans are looking for however. Then again, maybe that's all the Left has to offer at this point. I'd love to be proven wrong on that point.

[Canadiens1131]

I think you're generalizing. Oakland protests were rife with Black Bloc anarchist activists who have been filmed doing a lot of the looting, opposed to groups of OWS protesters trying to shoo them away from storefronts.

Personally, I am still finding it hard to get a narrative together for the OWS protests for the very reason that they are very disorganized and don't have a very effective way of communicating what they want or why they're out there. The heshers and anarchists who are latching onto those with legitimate concerns, aside, this is definitely no well-organized group of older, disgruntled white people as the TP were.

The occupations are more of a spectator sport for me, at the moment.

It's interesting seeing civil unrest manifest itself in the information age, though.

[Canadiens1131]

On a lighter note:

[Tiger Edge]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I too would like to see the cozy relationship between government and corporations curtailed.

*tire screech*

Wait, so aside from the hippies and anarchists and kids with rings in their noses and the bros in Guy Fawkes masks, you agree with one of the principles of OWS??
(Please note I said principle and not method, or proposed method. I agree that taking a chainsaw to the wall street bull's balls or other such shenanigans will accomplish nothing.)

*I don't know if the chainsaw thing is something on the table, so I hope I didn't give anyone the idea

[2861U2]

Originally Posted by Tiger Edge

*tire screech*

Wait, so aside from the hippies and anarchists and kids with rings in their noses and the bros in Guy Fawkes masks, you agree with one of the principles of OWS??

Speaking as a conservative, absolutely. Contrary to what the left might be portraying, I don't know a single conservative who would be pleased with that recent report showing however many companies paying no taxes (whatever the number was, I'm not going to look it up).

Likewise- though some may never admit it- there are parts of the Tea Party agenda that much of the left probably agrees with (term limits, balanced budgets, etc.).

[kramwest1]

Originally Posted by Canadiens1131

On a lighter note:

OWS--"I'll use protection" vvv

[kramwest1]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

S
Likewise- though some may never admit it- there are parts of the Tea Party agenda that much of the left probably agrees with (term limits, balanced budgets, etc.).

Include overturning the Citizens United decision, and we've got a solid common platform for changing our government.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

Speaking as a conservative, absolutely. Contrary to what the left might be portraying, I don't know a single conservative who would be pleased with that recent report showing however many companies paying no taxes (whatever the number was, I'm not going to look it up).

Likewise- though some may never admit it- there are parts of the Tea Party agenda that much of the left probably agrees with (term limits, balanced budgets, etc.).

i know a few conservatives... they're the ones in office who accept campaign donations from the same companies that aren't paying any taxes.

and that is the problem, and why i don't like the occupy wall street protest... go to washington. the real enemy is seated in congress, on both side of the aisle. occupy the mall. political corruption is what allows corporate corruption to continue. start at the root, and the tree will die.

[BoMac]

Is there truly no way that a centrist candidate/party that takes the best ideas from both the right and left make inroads in the U.S.? That really is the only way the U.S. can get itself out of this mess right now. Neither party seems to want to act with the best interests of all Americans in mind, and nothing will ever change for the better as long as that's the case.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

Speaking as a conservative, absolutely. Contrary to what the left might be portraying, I don't know a single conservative who would be pleased with that recent report showing however many companies paying no taxes (whatever the number was, I'm not going to look it up).

Yet this is exactly what many in the tea party fought for.