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Old 11-11-2015, 02:53 AM   #21
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I just don't understand why dressing as a historical figure for Halloween would not be ok. Are they exaggerating features in an offensive manner? Are they running around with their hand tapping against their mouth going Oh wo wo o o?



I realize my connection to my native American nationality is a couple generations removed, so I'm only a quarter native, but I love my heritage, and hold very tightly to it. But I can't for the life of my understand why dressing as Pocahontas would be offensive...



EDIT: And I'm saying this because I'd like to have a meaningful conversation about this topic, as lately I've kinda been a bit awestruck by how ANGRY people have been getting towards individuals who dress as Native Americans for events...yet there's all this pushback about the whole Redskins name. Obviously I can only speak for myself, but the former doesn't offend me in the slightest. The latter absolutely does.

I'll let an actual Native American explain this one:

"But you don’t understand what it feels like to be me. I am a Native person. You are (most likely) a white person. You walk through life everyday never having the fear of someone mis-representing your people and your culture. You don’t have to worry about the vast majority of your people living in poverty, struggling with alcoholism, domestic violence, hunger, and unemployment caused by 500+ years of colonialism and federal policies aimed at erasing your existence. You don’t walk through life everyday feeling invisible, because the only images the public sees of you are fictionalized stereotypes that don’t represent who you are at all. You don’t know what it’s like to care about something so deeply and know at your core that it’s so wrong, and have others in positions of power dismiss you like you’re some sort of over-sensitive freak.

You are in a position of power. You might not know it, but you are. Simply because of the color of your skin, you have been afforded opportunities and privilege, because our country was built on a foundation of white supremacy. That’s probably a concept that’s too much for you to handle right now, when all you wanted to do was dress up as a PocaHottie for Halloween, but it’s true.

I am not in a position of power. Native people are not in positions of power. By dressing up as a fake Indian, you are asserting your power over us, and continuing to oppress us. That should worry you."


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Old 11-11-2015, 03:22 AM   #22
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My goodness this article is good:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...t-yale/414810/
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:01 AM   #23
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Political correctness is a term invented by people who are pissed that they cannot be assholes with impunity in 2015. No one is trying to take away their freedom of speech; rather, people are using their freedom of speech to criticize people who are shitheads, and the shitheads are pissed. "I want to be able to joke about minorities and women without being told I'm a bad person for doing so." What's funny about punching down? Nothing, but don't tell that to the right. It's political correctness run amok!!1!1!!

To be fair, it's not just the right. It's also guys like Bill Maher, who is also a major asshole.
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:47 AM   #24
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SOPO - Society of the Perpetually Offended
To be clear, this is certainly not just a problem on one side of the political spectrum.

See: Starbucks cups
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:51 AM   #25
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Exactly. Also see the Republican Presidential debates only going to Fox News because it's their "safe space".

The intent behind creating "safe spaces" is great. Expecting people to respect others and having serious dialogues on why dressing up as a "cholo" is disrespectful is great. I feel that some things have gone a bit too far, like was mentioned in that fantastic Atlantic article.

However, what is going on at Mizzou is quite different and systemic. I'm glad the students there are taking a stand.

Mizzou Death Threat Maker Identified as 19-Year-Old Hunter Park - The Daily Beast
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Old 11-11-2015, 04:40 PM   #26
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I'll let an actual Native American explain this one:
What's that supposed to mean?
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:48 PM   #27
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To be clear, this is certainly not just a problem on one side of the political spectrum.

See: Starbucks cups
Oh God. Ashley went and pointed this one out to me. It had somehow slipped under my radar.

As with many non-controversies, this is an issue that 5 seconds of google-based research could solve. Starbucks loves hawking Christmas merchandise with the name slapped right on it. That has not changed and will not change because they decided to try a minimalist cup for one year.

The problem is that the internet is an all-hours platform for ignorant people to make angry snap judgments on topics they know nothing about. Many of us have done it, I know I certainly have, and it goes a long way toward explaining why internet discourse can be so terrible. That approach to self-expression translates to real life too, as can be seen the link to the Atlantic posted above wherein a Yale student screams at her senior administrator for having a different outlook on the fundamental purpose of higher education.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:32 PM   #28
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You know what's offensive? Christmas cups on November 11th.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:43 PM   #29
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What's that supposed to mean?

Did you read the quote that I posted afterwards? As a white person I can't explain why it's offensive as well as a Native American, so that's why I posted the quote and article written by a Native American.


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Old 11-11-2015, 10:44 PM   #30
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I was just fucking with you, dude .
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:43 PM   #31
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I was just fucking with you, dude .

You saying you want a piece of me?

http://youtu.be/R95tj5O0voU


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Old 11-12-2015, 02:04 AM   #32
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Political correctness is a term invented by people who are pissed that they cannot be assholes with impunity in 2015. No one is trying to take away their freedom of speech; rather, people are using their freedom of speech to criticize people who are shitheads, and the shitheads are pissed. "I want to be able to joke about minorities and women without being told I'm a bad person for doing so." What's funny about punching down? Nothing, but don't tell that to the right. It's political correctness run amok!!1!1!!

To be fair, it's not just the right. It's also guys like Bill Maher, who is also a major asshole.
I've always thought of Bill Maher as someone who has successfully managed to market himself as being on the left, but in reality, whenever I've heard anything from him, he's never struck me as particularly progressive in the least.

And he's so intensely unlikable, so I agree with you there.
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Old 11-12-2015, 02:25 AM   #33
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Bill Maher is far from alone in punching down on religious folk, particularly Muslim religious folk, because it is an article of faith that progressive = anti-tradition. More fool him because the marketised society is wholly corrosive of all human (or should that be humane) values, not merely traditional ones. There's a reason why anything resembling a left political program for government is dead in the water basically everywhere, despite opinion polls on public attitudes toward public ownership of key infrastructure, government support for equitable healthcare and education. Et cetera, et cetera.

That aforementioned marketisation, and the 24/7 performance aspect of social media (for those who decide it must be part of their life, which is seemingly almost everyone), might have a little to do also with the seeming 'pc craziness' of late. There is an element of oneupmanship to performing virtue online. Most of us probably fall somewhere midway along a continuum where we try to be basically considerate, and don't generally go around blasting racial or sexual epithets, but also fall well short of ideological purity.
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Old 11-12-2015, 11:12 AM   #34
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There's a particularly brand of intellectual that thinks because they're atheist and insult Christians on occasion that it gives them carte blanche to say whatever they want about Muslims. Maher might monologue like Johnny Carson, but there's not all that much of a difference between him and a jackass like Christopher Hitchens who really just wanted to insult Muslim people. The only difference is people thought Hitchens was smarter because he had a British accent and did the whole "tortured genius alcoholic" thing.

I actually went through a brief phase in my atheism where I read/listened to a lot of Hitchens, but have since wised up as I've learned more about him.
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Old 11-12-2015, 12:11 PM   #35
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This sort of thing is way more dangerous for free speech than any nonsense about "political correctness."

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Old 11-12-2015, 12:40 PM   #36
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Yes, that is well worth reading to help understand why "political correctness" run amuck is dangerous. The danger is creating a society where dissenting views are not tolerated and must under threat, must be confessed as wrong.

From the article:

Watching footage of that meeting, a fundamental disagreement is revealed between professor and undergrads. Christakis believes that he has an obligation to listen to the views of the students, to reflect upon them, and to either respond that he is persuaded or to articulate why he has a different view. Put another way, he believes that one respects students by engaging them in earnest dialogue. But many of the students believe that his responsibility is to hear their demands for an apology and to issue it. They see anything short of a confession of wrongdoing as unacceptable. In their view, one respects students by validating their subjective feelings.

Notice that the student position allows no room for civil disagreement.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:32 PM   #37
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i'm feeling a little badly for this obviously smart, passionate, young woman who likely got overly emotional in an exchange about issues which she obviously feels deeply in her being and is now all over social media and is being used as a jumping off point for some good points, but also a lot of people who really don't like it when their privilege is called into attention.

let's cut her some slack.
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Old 11-12-2015, 03:08 PM   #38
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I am a college student and I hope i can give more insightful comment about these issues, but i probably can't do so in depth 'cause Im not used to talking about it; I mostly determine how "offensive" things are by their intent. Things in Missouri is clearly wrong because they intended to do harm to minority. Im torn in the case of Yale, thou because those professors technically didn't cause this fiasco to be insensitive. However, I understand tension between races in relatively-conservative places and i guess both sides have points in that case. What I hate, though, is that those so-called "social justice warriors" attack everything even when they don't intend to hurt minority; Im mainly talking about people who gets so mad at satires or casual comments that's obviously meant to be jokes.
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Old 11-12-2015, 03:18 PM   #39
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SCHOOL ISN'T FOR LEARNlNG DON'T YOU FUCKING GET THAT

If she had a point to make to a superior, she should have taken them aside instead of drawing attention to herself in the most immature manner possible. She was begging to be a viral sensation with this.
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Old 11-12-2015, 03:28 PM   #40
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i'm feeling a little badly for this obviously smart, passionate, young woman who likely got overly emotional in an exchange about issues which she obviously feels deeply in her being and is now all over social media and is being used as a jumping off point for some good points, but also a lot of people who really don't like it when their privilege is called into attention.

let's cut her some slack.
I can't find myself feeling bad for her in the slightest, honestly. She can't just have her way throughout life. Her name and picture being out there sucks, but the person she attacked wasn't even the individual who wrote the email in the first place.
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