Personhood Amendments - Page 4

deep · 02-22-2012, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diemen

And I quote:

Eagerly awaiting the coming deflection.

first, you are wrong

second, what's with the ganging up

how does that contribute anything positive?

**KhanadaRhodes** · 02-22-2012, 06:33 AM

he posted the quote for iron horse, i don't see how that's ganging up on him.

anitram · 02-22-2012, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deep

second, what's with the ganging up

how does that contribute anything positive?

The poster behaves like a classic internet troll and has chosen to do so despite being asked to engage differently many times.

Maybe you see this as a positive contribution; I find it tedious. Mercifully the ignore function does exist and is more productive for the rest of us than the endless back and forth.

Irvine511 · 02-22-2012, 03:49 PM

since we're not getting a response, i can move on and report that it sounds like Gov. McDonnell in VA is going to drop the transvaginal ultrasound. so that's some good news.

~~slutty murderers~~ women will still be required to undergo a transabdominal ultrasound.

Moonlit_Angel · 02-22-2012, 07:21 PM

Glad to hear at least one of those is being dropped. How he thought he could come up with such an idea and not get people all upset about it, I'm not entirely sure.

Republicans' definition of "personal choice/liberty" is a very, very strange and confusing one. It's hard for me to keep up sometimes.

MrsSpringsteen · 03-20-2012, 05:35 PM

Huffington Post

The sponsor of an Idaho mandatory ultrasound bill, state Sen. Chuck Winder, made some highly controversial comments Monday during his closing arguments, suggesting women might falsely use rape as an excuse to obtain an abortion.

Just before the Idaho's Senate passed the bill, which requires a woman to have an ultrasound prior to obtaining an abortion, opponents of the bill pointed out that it makes no exception for rape victims, incest victims or women in medical emergencies.

Winder, a Republican from Boise, responded to those concerns by raising the question of whether women understand when they have been raped.

“Rape and incest was used as a reason to oppose this," Winder said on the Senate floor. "I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that's part of the counseling that goes on.”

Women reported 84,767 "forcible rapes" in the United States in 2010, according to the FBI's most recent Uniform Crime Report; the figure does not include statutory rape, incest or any other kind of rape that falls outside the FBI's narrow definition of the crime.

If Winder's mandatory ultrasound bill becomes law, a victim of rape or incest or a woman with a medical emergency who is seeking an abortion must obtain an ultrasound first and the state will provide a list of providers. Nearly every provider of free ultrasounds in Idaho is a "crisis pregnancy center," which aims to dissuade women from having an abortion. The woman would also have to obtain from a doctor a second ultrasound, which would involve an invasive transvaginal procedure if she is in her first trimester of pregnancy. Even if she averts her eyes from the ultrasound image and refuses to listen to the fetal heartbeat, she would have to hear the doctor describe the fetus in detail.

Proponents of the bill describe it as one more way to protect "unborn children," with the assumption that the ultrasound procedure and anti-abortion counseling might sway women against having an abortion. Opponents argue that it forces doctors to perform medically unnecessary procedures and contributes to the emotional anguish of women who have already made a very difficult decision.

One woman wrote last week about her painful experience with Texas' new mandatory ultrasound law in the Texas Observer, in which she had to listen to a doctor describe the gravely ill fetus that she had sought to abort to protect her own health.

The state Senate voted 23 to 12 to pass the controversial ultrasound bill on Monday, with all seven Democrats and five Republicans against it. The Republican-controlled House is also expected to pass the measure.

“Fellow senators, as a woman and as a person of faith, this bill makes me want to cry," said state Sen. Diane Bilyeu, a Democrat. "I want an end to abortion as well as all of you do, and I am totally opposed to abortion except in the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. But I find this bill to be intrusive into my faith, and it is punitive as a woman.”

Moonlit_Angel · 03-20-2012, 05:57 PM

"My name is Chuck Winder, and I'm an insensitive asshole."

That article is further evidence that men generally should just stay the hell out of this issue altogether.

Believe me, that's the most polite comment I can make, because holy crap, do his comments anger me.

BVS · 03-20-2012, 06:57 PM

Unfortunately he seems to be pretty representative of a portion of males on the right. I've heard this line of thinking quite a bit...

ryancoke71 · 03-20-2012, 07:20 PM

Wow, just wow. I don't even know what to say. For women to be forced to do this is unbelieveable to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

“Fellow senators, as a woman and as a person of faith, this bill makes me want to cry," said state Sen. Diane Bilyeu, a Democrat. "I want an end to abortion as well as all of you do, and I am totally opposed to abortion except in the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. But I find this bill to be intrusive into my faith, and it is punitive as a woman.”

She summed it up perfectly. Intrusive is putting it mildly. I can't even imagine having to make the decision to have an abortion, and then having to be subjected to this.

PhilsFan · 03-20-2012, 07:49 PM

If you are pro-life, you basically have to agree with that guy, or your argument makes no sense. Do we need to have sped up trials to prove that women were raped? How far are we going to go before you admit that you simply don't trust women?

MrsSpringsteen · 03-20-2012, 08:01 PM

I think you can be pro life and still know (intellectually, instinctively, and pretty much in every other possible way) that women definitely understand when they have been raped and when a pregnancy is a result of that rape. Not all pro life people think that women are whores who are sleeping around and crying rape in order to get an abortion.

Moonlit_Angel · 03-20-2012, 08:02 PM

Not to mention, if they restrict it so much that they're only willing to allow women to have abortions in that particular instance, but a woman does need to have one for another reason, she probably WILL have to lie in order to be able to have a chance at getting one. So they've kind of inadvertently caused the very scenario they're wondering about.

Good to see such amazing brainpower having so much control over our bodies

.

anitram · 03-20-2012, 08:35 PM

I like how people (here and elsewhere) say that the media is constantly making this into an issue. No, you know what, maybe when your Republican state senators and congressmen stop coming up with one bill after another to probe women without consent, for no medical reason whatsoever, then the media would stop writing about it.

PhilsFan · 03-20-2012, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

I think you can be pro life and still know (intellectually, instinctively, and pretty much in every other possible way) that women definitely understand when they have been raped and when a pregnancy is a result of that rape. Not all pro life people think that women are whores who are sleeping around and crying rape in order to get an abortion.

No, you can't. You can't make abortion illegal with exceptions for medical and rape situations without having a plan for what happens when a woman says she is raped.

Moonlit_Angel · 03-20-2012, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anitram

I like how people (here and elsewhere) say that the media is constantly making this into an issue. No, you know what, maybe when your Republican state senators and congressmen stop coming up with one bill after another to probe women without consent, for no medical reason whatsoever, then the media would stop writing about it.

THIS. Thank you.

Again, Republicans, remember that whole economy thing you kept promising you'd fix? I don't exactly see how this is going to help people get jobs.

But you know, keep on with your diversion tactics, I guess.

MrsSpringsteen · 03-20-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

No, you can't. You can't make abortion illegal with exceptions for medical and rape situations without having a plan for what happens when a woman says she is raped.

I don't understand what you mean by "plan". You just can't assume that all pro-life people would support what this Winder guy is talking about. Five Republicans voted against it, so they don't. Assuming they are pro life. Their plan would involve believing in the integrity and honesty of these women, for starters.

As for all this probing into women-it makes me think of all those movies in which aliens probe humans and I want to take all these male politicians and put them into close encounters of the third kind. With all kinds of probing.

Moonlit_Angel · 03-20-2012, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

As for all this probing into women-it makes me think of all those movies in which aliens probe humans and I want to take all these male politicians and put them into close encounters of the third kind. With all kinds of probing.

Hehehe. Great idea. HELL, yes

.

PhilsFan · 03-20-2012, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

I don't understand what you mean by "plan". You just can't assume that all pro-life people would support what this Winder guy is talking about. Five Republicans voted against it, so they don't. Assuming they are pro life. Their plan would involve believing in the integrity and honesty of these women, for starters.

But you can't ban abortions without taking rape into consideration, can you? In some way, if you propose legislation that would ban abortions, you would have to address that in your plan.

MrsSpringsteen · 04-03-2012, 06:21 PM

Arizona Legislators Trying To Declare Pregnancy Two Weeks Prior To Conception | RH Reality Check

"There, lawmakers are writing a 20-week abortion ban that starts counting off at the first day of a woman’s period. Yes, they’re arguing that you’re “pregnant” while you’re actually getting your period. In fact, as Kate Sheppard at Mother Jones explains, they’re really trying to steal as many weeks as possible away from women seeking abortion:

Most women ovulate about 14 or 15 days after their period starts, and women can usually get pregnant from sexual intercourse that occured anywhere between five days before ovulation and a day after it. Arizona's law would start the clock at a woman's last period—which means, in practice, that the law prohibits abortion later than 18 weeks after a woman actually becomes pregnant."

BVS · 04-03-2012, 06:39 PM

Why am I not suprised that this is in Arizona?

02-22-2012, 06:33 AM	#62
KhanadaRhodes Paper Gods Forum Administrator Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: a vampire in the limousine Posts: 60,696 Local Time: 03:32 PM	he posted the quote for iron horse, i don't see how that's ganging up on him. __________________ __________________

04-03-2012, 06:39 PM	#80
BVS Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: between my head and heart Posts: 41,232 Local Time: 03:32 PM	Why am I not suprised that this is in Arizona? __________________

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02-22-2012, 03:49 PM	#64
Irvine511 Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the West Coast Posts: 34,456 Local Time: 04:32 PM	since we're not getting a response, i can move on and report that it sounds like Gov. McDonnell in VA is going to drop the transvaginal ultrasound. so that's some good news. ~~slutty murderers~~ women will still be required to undergo a transabdominal ultrasound.

02-22-2012, 07:21 PM	#65
Moonlit_Angel Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo... Posts: 20,774 Local Time: 02:32 PM	Glad to hear at least one of those is being dropped. How he thought he could come up with such an idea and not get people all upset about it, I'm not entirely sure. Republicans' definition of "personal choice/liberty" is a very, very strange and confusing one. It's hard for me to keep up sometimes.

03-20-2012, 05:35 PM	#66
MrsSpringsteen Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Thank you for your service Bono Posts: 29,001 Local Time: 03:32 PM	Huffington Post The sponsor of an Idaho mandatory ultrasound bill, state Sen. Chuck Winder, made some highly controversial comments Monday during his closing arguments, suggesting women might falsely use rape as an excuse to obtain an abortion. Just before the Idaho's Senate passed the bill, which requires a woman to have an ultrasound prior to obtaining an abortion, opponents of the bill pointed out that it makes no exception for rape victims, incest victims or women in medical emergencies. Winder, a Republican from Boise, responded to those concerns by raising the question of whether women understand when they have been raped. “Rape and incest was used as a reason to oppose this," Winder said on the Senate floor. "I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that's part of the counseling that goes on.” Women reported 84,767 "forcible rapes" in the United States in 2010, according to the FBI's most recent Uniform Crime Report; the figure does not include statutory rape, incest or any other kind of rape that falls outside the FBI's narrow definition of the crime. If Winder's mandatory ultrasound bill becomes law, a victim of rape or incest or a woman with a medical emergency who is seeking an abortion must obtain an ultrasound first and the state will provide a list of providers. Nearly every provider of free ultrasounds in Idaho is a "crisis pregnancy center," which aims to dissuade women from having an abortion. The woman would also have to obtain from a doctor a second ultrasound, which would involve an invasive transvaginal procedure if she is in her first trimester of pregnancy. Even if she averts her eyes from the ultrasound image and refuses to listen to the fetal heartbeat, she would have to hear the doctor describe the fetus in detail. Proponents of the bill describe it as one more way to protect "unborn children," with the assumption that the ultrasound procedure and anti-abortion counseling might sway women against having an abortion. Opponents argue that it forces doctors to perform medically unnecessary procedures and contributes to the emotional anguish of women who have already made a very difficult decision. One woman wrote last week about her painful experience with Texas' new mandatory ultrasound law in the Texas Observer, in which she had to listen to a doctor describe the gravely ill fetus that she had sought to abort to protect her own health. The state Senate voted 23 to 12 to pass the controversial ultrasound bill on Monday, with all seven Democrats and five Republicans against it. The Republican-controlled House is also expected to pass the measure. “Fellow senators, as a woman and as a person of faith, this bill makes me want to cry," said state Sen. Diane Bilyeu, a Democrat. "I want an end to abortion as well as all of you do, and I am totally opposed to abortion except in the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. But I find this bill to be intrusive into my faith, and it is punitive as a woman.”

03-20-2012, 05:57 PM	#67
Moonlit_Angel Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo... Posts: 20,774 Local Time: 02:32 PM	"My name is Chuck Winder, and I'm an insensitive asshole." That article is further evidence that men generally should just stay the hell out of this issue altogether. Believe me, that's the most polite comment I can make, because holy crap, do his comments anger me.

03-20-2012, 06:57 PM	#68
BVS Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: between my head and heart Posts: 41,232 Local Time: 03:32 PM	Unfortunately he seems to be pretty representative of a portion of males on the right. I've heard this line of thinking quite a bit...

03-20-2012, 07:49 PM	#70
PhilsFan Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: South Philadelphia Posts: 19,218 Local Time: 04:32 PM	If you are pro-life, you basically have to agree with that guy, or your argument makes no sense. Do we need to have sped up trials to prove that women were raped? How far are we going to go before you admit that you simply don't trust women?

03-20-2012, 08:01 PM	#71
MrsSpringsteen Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Thank you for your service Bono Posts: 29,001 Local Time: 03:32 PM	I think you can be pro life and still know (intellectually, instinctively, and pretty much in every other possible way) that women definitely understand when they have been raped and when a pregnancy is a result of that rape. Not all pro life people think that women are whores who are sleeping around and crying rape in order to get an abortion.

03-20-2012, 08:02 PM	#72
Moonlit_Angel Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo... Posts: 20,774 Local Time: 02:32 PM	Not to mention, if they restrict it so much that they're only willing to allow women to have abortions in that particular instance, but a woman does need to have one for another reason, she probably WILL have to lie in order to be able to have a chance at getting one. So they've kind of inadvertently caused the very scenario they're wondering about. Good to see such amazing brainpower having so much control over our bodies .

03-20-2012, 08:35 PM	#73
anitram Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: NY Posts: 18,918 Local Time: 04:32 PM	I like how people (here and elsewhere) say that the media is constantly making this into an issue. No, you know what, maybe when your Republican state senators and congressmen stop coming up with one bill after another to probe women without consent, for no medical reason whatsoever, then the media would stop writing about it.

04-03-2012, 06:21 PM	#79
MrsSpringsteen Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Thank you for your service Bono Posts: 29,001 Local Time: 03:32 PM	Arizona Legislators Trying To Declare Pregnancy Two Weeks Prior To Conception \| RH Reality Check "There, lawmakers are writing a 20-week abortion ban that starts counting off at the first day of a woman’s period. Yes, they’re arguing that you’re “pregnant” while you’re actually getting your period. In fact, as Kate Sheppard at Mother Jones explains, they’re really trying to steal as many weeks as possible away from women seeking abortion: Most women ovulate about 14 or 15 days after their period starts, and women can usually get pregnant from sexual intercourse that occured anywhere between five days before ovulation and a day after it. Arizona's law would start the clock at a woman's last period—which means, in practice, that the law prohibits abortion later than 18 weeks after a woman actually becomes pregnant."