Personhood Amendments

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I don't think this is what Indy was alluding to with his post. Rather, he's talking about the warm and fuzzy feeling we're supposed to get when we realize (because it hadn't occurred to us before) that at fetus is a living thing with a heartbeat. We all know that a heartbeat signifies life and love and we should reconsider our stance on the issue in light of this very insightful information. It's not at all the reasoning of a simpleton

You're right, JT. I guess I'm too cold to understand how delightful it is to know that a heartbeat means abortion will not be used to save a dying woman.

[Pearl]

On March 14, 2009, 31 weeks into her pregnancy, Nina Buckhalter gave birth to a stillborn baby girl. She named the child Hayley Jade. Two months later, a grand jury in Lamar County, Mississippi, indicted Buckhalter for manslaughter, claiming that the then-29-year-old woman "did willfully, unlawfully, feloniously, kill Hayley Jade Buckhalter, a human being, by culpable negligence."

The district attorney argued that methamphetamine detected in Buckhalter's system caused Hayley Jade's death. The state Supreme Court, which heard oral arguments on the case on April 2, is expected to rule soon on whether the prosecution can move forward.

If prosecutors prevail in this case, the state would be setting a "dangerous precedent" that "unintentional pregnancy loss can be treated as a form of homicide," says Farah Diaz-Tello, a staff attorney with National Advocates for Pregnant Women, a nonprofit legal organization that has joined with Robert McDuff, a Mississippi civil rights lawyer, to defend Buckhalter. If Buckhalter's case goes forward, NAPW fears it could spur a wave of similar prosecutions in Mississippi and other states.

Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages | Mother Jones

I'm not sure what to think of this. On one hand, I am appalled that a woman can be charged with manslaughter over the stillbirth or miscarriage of a baby. But if that happened because the woman drank or used drugs right up to the loss of the baby, well then this issue wanders into a gray area. However, if the idea of a woman can be locked up for negligence while pregnant, where does the line get drawn?

[BEAL]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages | Mother Jones

I'm not sure what to think of this. On one hand, I am appalled that a woman can be charged with manslaughter over the stillbirth or miscarriage of a baby. But if that happened because the woman drank or used drugs right up to the loss of the baby, well then this issue wanders into a gray area. However, if the idea of a woman can be locked up for negligence while pregnant, where does the line get drawn?

And that's exactly why it's so baffling to hear conservatives rail against big government / involvement. They are the ones that are so paranoid, yet isn't this a prime example of not being able to trust government to make the right decision??

[Pearl]

I can see some conservative demanding a woman who miscarried to be charged because she flew on an airplane, did too much walking, worked 40 hours a week, etc.

[anitram]

Where does it end?

Should ever sexually active woman of childbearing age give up alcohol on the day she ovulates and stay sober until the day of her next period? Cigarettes? Prescription medications that could be harmful? What if she doesn't know when she's ovulating?

[deep]

If a pregnant woman falls off a bicycle, at the very least she is guilty of attempted manslaughter.

[BoMac]

http://m.xojane.com/issues/billy-cai...t-of-my-vagina

[Irvine511]

After Tiller (2013) - Official Trailer [HD] - YouTube

there are only 4 "out" doctors in the US who can legally perform a "late term" abortion.

4.

[Jive Turkey]

My gf saw that at Hotdocs this year. Said she was underwhelmed considering the subject matter. But worth a look if you've got any preconceptions about what kind of people seek out late term abortions

[Pearl]

As terrible as the last few years have been for reproductive rights in the United States, growing extremism among antiabortion politicians has resulted in unprecedented awareness of these issues and a groundswell of public support for abortion rights. Wendy Davis’ marathon filibuster, bolstered by her Democratic colleagues and the thousands of Texans who showed up at the Capitol day after day, turned the state’s sweeping new abortion law and Gov. Rick Perry into national symbols for the right’s fixation on policing women’s bodies. The same could be said of Mississippi, Arkansas, North Dakota and elsewhere in the country. As a result of these battles, we now know the names, faces and strategies behind the American antiabortion movement, and that knowledge is a powerful thing.
But there is another threat to women’s access to abortion happening right now, and it is largely missing from how we talk about the war on reproductive rights: The number of doctors who perform abortions in this country has been steadily declining for decades, and medical schools aren’t training enough students to replace them.
“There are a lot of reasons why reproductive healthcare is not well covered in medical school curricula,” Lois Backus, executive director of Medical Students for Choice, tells Salon. “But among the most serious causes is the fact that reproductive health topics are still a source of controversy. Even though abortion is the second most common procedure experienced by women of childbearing age, it is routinely ignored in medical education.”

According to data from the National Abortion Federation, nearly 70 percent of medical students in the United States have received less than 30 minutes of class training about abortion by the time they finish medical school. This disregard for reproductive health education is an experience Dr. Nancy Stanwood, associate professor and section chief of Family Planning at the Yale School of Medicine and board chair of Physicians for Reproductive Health, remembers well. “We spent literally an hour and a half learning about birth control in two years of lectures,” she says. “We spent more time on cochlear implants — an important, but far less common, procedure.”

The problem with this kind of uneven training is that a lack of early exposure to reproductive health issues not only hurts a student’s ability to become, as Stanwood notes, “informed physician citizens,” it also shapes their career choices. It’s far less likely for students to choose a specialization in reproductive health care if it’s not something they’re hearing about during their training.
Social stigma around abortion may drive the marginalization of this training in medical school curricula, but the scarcity of students being trained to perform the procedure is also directly connected to the proliferation of GOP-backed state-level restrictions — on funding, on clinics and on physicians themselves.
New regulations mandated under Texas’ omnibus antiabortion law threaten to shutter all but five of the remaining abortion service providers in the second most populous state in the country. Mississippi is still engaged in a legal battle to keep its last remaining abortion clinic open; the same goes for North Dakota. Nationwide, close to 90 percent of American counties lack an abortion provider, leaving millions of women without meaningful access to reproductive healthcare.
But for a medical student, the absence of providers can also mean the absence of teachers
In Ohio earlier this year, the University of Toledo Medical Center, bowing to pressure from state Republicans and Ohio Right to Life, refused to renew its transfer agreement with two area clinics, the Center for Choice and Capital Care Network. Both clinics closed only months later, leaving women like Carolyn Payne, a medical student at the University of Toledo, and 15 of her colleagues, without anyone to teach them how to perform abortions. As Payne told the Chronicle of Higher Education, she now has to travel an hour outside the city to learn this basic medical procedure.
In Kansas, after a measure attempting to ban public hospitals from providing any and all abortion training failed, the Republican-controlled Legislature passed a slightly modified, though similarly restrictive, version of the bill requiring public hospitals to use private dollars to fund medical residents’ abortion training. Gov. Sam Brownback signed it, along with dozens of other sweeping abortion restrictions, in April. These kinds of barriers leave training available in the most limited of terms, but make it far from accessible.
It’s a national trend with long-term consequences. After all, what does the right to an abortion mean if there are increasingly fewer doctors left to perform the procedure?
But, faced with growing barriers to comprehensive training, medical students across the country have started to fight back. “Students are hungry for this training,” Stanwood says. “We’re witnessing a really important generational shift. More and more medical students want to be equipped to meet these needs, and reform is beginning to happen because students are demanding it. Change is coming from the bottom up rather than the top down.”
Progress has been particularly strong at the residency level. Training opportunities have proliferated in obstetrics-gynecology residency programs and family practice residency programs in large part because of funding from organizations like the Kenneth J. Ryan Residency Program, the continued advocacy of groups Medical Students for Choice and medical students themselves.
But there is still a long way to go. And the stakes couldn’t be higher. “This is a very long-term fight that we’re in,” Backus says. “The medical world is very conservative and resistant to change.” She estimates that with the proliferation of antiabortion legislation, this could be as much as a 50-year fight. “But,” she adds, “we plan to stay in there.”

GOP’s secret anti-choice plot: The shady crackdown on training abortion doctors - Salon.com

[nbcrusader]

I didn't realize the GOP had such control over all medial training in the United States. Editorializing a decline in abortion clinics (lack of business?) is pure partisan fodder.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by nbcrusader

I didn't realize the GOP had such control over all medial training in the United States. Editorializing a decline in abortion clinics (lack of business?) is pure partisan fodder.

The abortion rate has gone down in this country, yes, thanks to better contraceptives.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/he...-20-years.html

But it's no secret that the GOP is hellbent on banning abortion, no matter what. So to say that Salon.com piece is just liberal rhetoric is kind of ignoring what's going on in this country.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Pearl

The GOP is hellbent on banning abortion, no matter what.

Let's be honest: the GOP would slit their collective grandmother's throats if they could figure out how to have such influence in higher education.

I think that the GOP has less cultural influence over the past twenty years on this issue than improved neonatal care and the increased sophistication in ultrasound technology. More women are getting better healthcare at earlier and earlier stages of their pregnancies, and this is a good thing. This might explain the most recent Gallup polls where, in 6 out of 9 polls, 58% of Americans described themselves as either flat-out pro-life, or pro-life with few exceptions.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/162374/am...ell-trial.aspx

[Irvine511]

And most Americans think it should remains gal in some or all circumstances.

Makes sense, lots of people I know would themselves never consider an abortion, but would never dream of controlling another woman's body.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

And most Americans think it should remain legal in some or all circumstances.

According to Gallup, most Americans think abortion should either A) be completely illegal, or B) be legal only when the mother's life is at stake. (A pretty mainstream pro-life position.) That's about 60% of the country.

in any event, Pearl expressed frustration with where this country is at when it comes to abortion, which in light of the article carried a strong implication that the GOP is to blame. I suggested some options to the contrary as to the shift in terms of cultural perspectives on abortion; do you disagree?

[Irvine511]

I think there's frustration with the actions of certai states who have sought to shit down abortion providers as we discussed at length earlier.

I think the American people remain about where they've always been on the issue, whichnisnat odds with the actions of Rick Perry or the forced transvaginal ultrasound crowd.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

in any event, Pearl expressed frustration with where this country is at when it comes to abortion, which in light of the article carried a strong implication that the GOP is to blame. I suggested some options to the contrary as to the shift in terms of cultural perspectives on abortion; do you disagree?

My frustration is toward the insane regulations and the frightening ignorance of many Republicans, such as Todd Aiken. My frustration is also toward those who can't seem to grasp that even liberals aren't gung-ho for abortions and would like to see it disappear, but are fully aware that not all women are ready to have children, or even want to for whatever reason (rape, poverty).

The GOP is well-known for its anti-abortion stance and I haven't heard of any Democrats echoing the same stance. I'm willing to look around for any left-winger who is not pro-abortion(and I hope you are too), but I highly doubt any of them will have the same views as Aiken, Santorum or Rick Perry.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I think there's frustration with the actions of certai states who have sought to shit down abortion providers as we discussed at length earlier.

I think the American people remain about where they've always been on the issue, whichnisnat odds with the actions of Rick Perry or the forced transvaginal ultrasound crowd.

yikes. sorry about the autocorrect.

[LemonMelon]

Radical fundies should shit down abortion clinics instead of blowing them up.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Pearl

My frustration is toward the insane regulations and the frightening ignorance of many Republicans, such as Todd Aiken. ...

The GOP is well-known for its anti-abortion stance

Aiken was run out of office, and Santorum is now running a crappy faith-based film company, which tells me that A) calmer heads are prevailing within the party, and B) calmer heads are prevailing among the voters. (But that's me.)

In any event, the Salon article seems to be an amusing exercise in waving fists at the sky, since it rails against the GOP's supposed influence in medicine/higher ed, which is nonsense. Again, better prenatal medical care including the improvement of ultrasounds and the rise of 3D ultrasounds has most likely had a deeper cultural impact on the culture's shifting pro-life stance.