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Old 05-03-2011, 12:52 PM   #381
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It's ugly, but I think the decision is understandable.

Try and think through what immediate risks might have been involved in capturing him, and then how difficult bringing him to trial would have been, and how long it would have taken (years),


I agree with this but it gets messy when the US keeps assasinating foreign leaders.

This has no bearing on the argument at all, but see that quote button on the bottom right-hand side? Can you use it? It would be much easier in terms of figuring out who you're responding to. Thanks.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:55 PM   #382
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You really missed my point. How do you suggest they would have brought him in alive?
In reality, as it played it out, it may or may not have been possible, or easy or hard, but at least from the point of Obama's orders or the operational plan, you could have never, ever, ever make that any kind of goal, or even have expressed any desire for them to try if possible.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:58 PM   #383
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It's ugly, but I think the decision is understandable.

Try and think through what immediate risks might have been involved in capturing him, and then how difficult bringing him to trial would have been, and how long it would have taken (years), and how messy/political/ugly it almost certainly would have gotten, all the while with this huge symbol still existing - which could mean all sorts of different things.

Again, the story is over. That is probably, simply, what the winning argument is/was. Just end the story.

Also, sort of along those lines, it seems the news of the moment is that something else will be released by the White House - a photo, or video, or something - maybe even today. I don't think they should do that so fast. That will get ugly, fast. They should just get a range of people, journalists from around the world representing all sorts of views/positions, various representatives from other nations, pile them into a room, show them what they've got (video of the raid, photo of bin Laden, video of the sea-burial) and have, say, a hundred people representing a very broad and trustworthy cross section, saying we've seen it, it's legit, let it go. Start there at least. As yolland said a couple of pages ago, release a photo or video, and within 15 minutes... He shouldn't continue to be a symbol of anything, almost especially including mocking and taunting.
i hope they don't release any photos or video footage... i think things could get really ugly if they did that...

plus i don't think the story is over though... Bin Laden might be dead, but the manner of his death might make him/his ideology even more dangerous than before...

also, how long did it take them to dispatch Saddam Hussein??? i cannot remember the timescale for the life of me... i would've liked to have seen Bin Laden brought to trial for the crimes he committed...
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:02 PM   #384
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In reality, as it played it out, it may or may not have been possible, or easy or hard, but at least from the point of Obama's orders or the operational plan, you could have never, ever, ever make that any kind of goal, or even have expressed any desire for them to try if possible.
in The Guardian quote i posted above:

Quote:
Brennan said: "If we had the opportunity to take Bin Laden alive, if he didn't present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that."
so maybe it was an option?
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:02 PM   #385
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I don't think they should release anything either, but unfortunately they will have to do so. It's a no-win situation and in this case, transparency trumps everything else.
I never even saw the video of Saddam being hanged. It's just very unnecessary. And I play war video games... a lot.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:10 PM   #386
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i dunno BVS, reports are now saying he was actually unarmed...
I haven't seen this, any links?
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:11 PM   #387
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Several posts above.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:12 PM   #388
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i think one night of U-S-A chants, in the context of the intense psychological trauma of the past 10 years -- from 9/11 to Iraq and Afghanistan to the horrors of the Bush administration -- is entirely understandable. it's difficult to explain just how dramatically this one act changed so much of American life, and many of these kids have grown up understanding OBL as akin to Emperor Palpatine or some kind of super villian. many, many people joined the armed forces after 9/11 precisely to join in the hunt to bring a mass murderer to justice.


for now, it feels very good, in a grim, sober way, that justice was served, and served by a team of incredibly skilled Navy SEALS who carried out a flawless mission ordered by an informed, cool-as-ice president that has since been recognized as one of the gutsiest military decisions ever made. what happened will be studied in history books and military manuals forever. Obama fucking got him. i'm not going to apologize for the small shot of adrenalized Id that makes me feel right now.

the past 10 years have been horrible. let's at least allow ourselves to feel good about something -- not the death, but about the country actually getting something right for once.
I edited this post to refer to two issues that stagger me:

1. The "Horrors" of the Bush administration???????
2. One of the Gutsiest military decisions ever made???

Don't forget that it was the "horrors" of the Bush administration that made this raid even possible......via gitmo detainees and intel gathered over the past 10 years - of which GWB was president for 7.

It's true that Obama took a "well-informed" gutsy decision - but then so did GWB when he went into Iraq and Afghanistan. It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had and he acted to protect American lives at home. The same thing could have happened here. The intel could have been false and the SEALS could have been led into a trap, G-d forbid, THEN he would have been as vilified as GWB was.

IMPORTANT:
I am not negating Pres. Obama's right to this victory - as commander-in-chief, he needed to make a tough call and G-d gave him the wisdom to make the right decision which led to this triumph - but I'll never forget that it was Pres. Bush who took the first stand against terrorism and the death of this monster couldn't have happened without the accumulated info gathered over the past 10 years.

So congratulations GWB! Congratulations Obama! .......and Semper Fi SEALS!

And most importantly, as I said before, praise to G-d almighty for this wonderful victory.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:18 PM   #389
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I haven't seen this, any links?
i posted the links/quotes higher up this page... have to say, i was a bit taken aback when i read about it...

eta: here they are...

40 minutes of fighting, and then two fatal shots | World news | The Guardian


Osama bin Laden: US changes account of al-Qaida leader's death | World news | guardian.co.uk
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:26 PM   #390
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Great, I hate everyone again. Thanks, thread.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:27 PM   #391
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Several posts above.
I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:29 PM   #392
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so maybe it was an option?
Yeah, maybe as it played out it could have been an option. Maybe not. I just mean that in planning, you wouldn't be able to make it a goal or even a hopeful outcome.

First priority: Get in and out as fast as possible. Best way to achieve that: No fucking around. So as a possible outcome, you wouldn't place 'capture' any higher than "Yeah, if when you get there, there's no resistance and he's standing there in the courtyard in his underpants waving a white flag, then go for it, but otherwise... no risks."

So if it comes out that this was all actually fairly ordered and simple, that's one thing, but from what we know now - that they had just crashed one chopper, they've just had or are still in the middle of some sort of 'fierce' fire fight, that they were deep within Pakistan, smack in the middle of a military city (ie, lord knows who might be about to show up, and what their reaction will be) - then it could all have been some chaotic madness that could not be contained and slowed down, and if that's the case, then I don't think it's that 'bad' that bin Laden ended up getting shot. And in that split second, whether he was armed or not, a lot could have been going on.

But having said that, I wouldn't care much for anything the Administration is saying about how they would have if they could have. I'd say they're all pretty happy that they didn't and they couldn't.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:42 PM   #393
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guess the whole thing was completely unpredictable... 40 minutes though, that seems quite a long time really, for such a stealth operation...
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:50 PM   #394
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I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".
This is what I saw reported earlier today on Politico. White House modifies Osama bin Laden account - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

As I said before, some details are still a bit murky as more and more information becomes available.
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Another official familiar with the operation said it did not appear that any woman was used as a human shield, but that the woman killed and the one injured were hurt in the crossfire. The official said he believed Brennan had mixed up the episode involving bin Laden’s wife with another encounter elsewhere in the compound.

“Two women were shot here. It sounds like their fates were mixed up,” said the U.S. official. “This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed.”

In another discrepancy, Brennan said during his on-the-record briefing that bin Laden’s son Khalid was killed in the attack. However, the official White House transcript had the counterterrorism adviser saying it was another son, Hamza, who perished in the raid.

The White House didn’t offer a reason for any of the changes. However, Brennan noted during his televised briefing that his information came from reports from the scene as well as live video feeds of the raid. “I wasn’t there,” he said.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:55 PM   #395
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Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwww! Bin Laden was unarmed, the travesty! I wonder how the Libs will make HIM into the victim?
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:58 PM   #396
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It only turned out later that the information he was given was false but, at the time, he acted in good faith on the information he had
You know, a calm non-cowboy president would have said, hold your horses here, General, I know you wanna use up them troops, but before I sent in the cavalry, let's really be certain before we commit the majority of our attention, manpower and funding to an invasion in a country that may or may not have anything to do with what happened on September 11th.

Iraq was either a shoot from the hip reaction by a bunch of yes men whose only training was "shoot first and ask questions later" or it was planned by a group of men who are as evil as Osama was, and much more damaging to innocent civilians in retrospect.

Of course, you can take a look at what happened this weekend (and since the course of August - TEN WHOLE MONTHS) when the right questions are asked prior to whipping out a gun, the intel gained is cross-verified and the military prowess is limited to a specially trained group instead of a lot of gung ho teens who are part of the shoot first and ask questions later group (see The Tillman Story). Enemy taken out, no soldiers harmed, case closed.

But you know, whatever. That's just me.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:58 PM   #397
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i just worry there might be a backlash, and things might get worse, much worse... al Qaida is fully functional without Bin Laden, he was just a figurehead in the end, but now he is a martyr and there will be revenge surely??
I think there will be a backlash/revenge in the short term, but in the longer term this will be a big blow to al-Qaida. He might've become more a figurehead lately, but he was a very important figurehead. A charismatic leader that unified the group, with probably plenty of ties to wealthy donors and a symbol for people to join al-Qaida.
With him gone, it's up to the #2 to be the leader and from all reports I've seen so far he's a far more divisive figure (for the al-Qaida organisation). Will he be able to attract many new recruits and donors? Plus, with the killing of Bin Laden the USA also sent out a very powerful message that no terrorist is safe. You will be caught. Over the years the USA already caught plenty of #3's in command, but with Bin Laden now gone, the leadership base has become very small.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:00 PM   #398
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I meant clarification of these articles. The Guardian is pretty sloppy at times. So far the only quote I've seen is an anonymous "I'm not aware of him having a weapon".
yeah who the fuck are all these "senior White House officials" anyway?! i bet they just make the coffee!
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:40 PM   #399
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yeah who the fuck are all these "senior White House officials" anyway?! i bet they just make the coffee!
Oh come on you can't be serious.

So far all we've seen are right leaning sights reporting on these vague off the record accounts(and it's all essentially the same report just shared on several sights). The only quote we've seen doesn't even actually say that he was unarmed. And it admits “This is hours old and the full facts are still being ascertained as those involved are debriefed.”
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:40 PM   #400
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Aaaaaaawwwwwwwwww! Bin Laden was unarmed, the travesty! I wonder how the Libs will make HIM into the victim?
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