Ongoing Mass Shooting Thread #3... that's right, a third thread. Because 'Murica.

[BEAL]

It does look like some major failures with the police force down there.

Which then brings out the stupid fucking “defund” messaging. Just stop using it, it’s a losing message. It’s a stupid one.

What is wrong with Reform, with the underlying policy to reallocate $$$ spent on military equipment and other bullshit on better quality of life for the citizens in each city / town ?

Democrats have some messaging opportunities with Abortion and gun violence. Don’t fall into the trap of shitting all over police (which I’m not saying isn’t warranted, but it’s bad politics) and allowing the Right to change the subject.

Focus on the guns and showing how gutless and immoral the other side is.

Pick the right and obvious battles

 

[david]

So many out of touch right wing republicans I know have had the saddest response “oh no kids were killed at a school!? Are the guns going to be ok?”

There’s so many ideological contradictions going on with what parties are worrying about..

Spend less time worrying about what’s being taught in schools and more time ensuring kids aren’t killed in classroom.

 

[Irvine511]

Glad I had kids then.

I used to want kids, but not anymore now.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Unfortunately our world is crazy so we need a 4th thread about this.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

i mean shit - let's maybe wait to confirm that this story is actually true before we start calling them cowardly?

these kind of events often have reports tied to them that end up being bullshit

See? The waiting actually made them seem more cowardly and inept .

 

[BEAL]

Maybe allowing citizens of society to be armed with weapons so dangerous that the Police are too scared to engage means we shouldnt have these weapons…

Or we need to hire an army of kamikaze crazed officers to go in guns blazing *sarcasm*


It’s still the guns but what a failure by the police. They literally trained in this scenario three months ago.

But if guns scare cops, the answer can’t be more guns

 

[mikal]

I'd just be curious to know what the actual protocol is in this situation. Was it just that the police were afraid for their own lives or because the actual protocol called for them to wait. Either way, WTF. If you're police and you physically hear the guy shooting kids, get in their and fucking do something.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

There is still more to the story to come out. It's still incomplete.

But the moral of it all is that this type of hardware should not be in the hands of civilians, and the whole "good guy with a gun" thing is horse shit.


Everything else is else is a secondary issue at this point.

 

[gump]

See? The waiting actually made them seem more cowardly and inept .

It kinda gets worse by the minute:

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/27/us/texas-school-shooting

When specially equipped federal immigration agents arrived at the elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday, the local police at the scene would not allow them to go after the gunman who had opened fire on students inside the school, according to two officials briefed on the situation.

 

[Jerry Dunk]

It does look like some major failures with the police force down there.

Which then brings out the stupid fucking “defund” messaging. Just stop using it, it’s a losing message. It’s a stupid one.

What is wrong with Reform, with the underlying policy to reallocate $$$ spent on military equipment and other bullshit on better quality of life for the citizens in each city / town ?

Democrats have some messaging opportunities with Abortion and gun violence. Don’t fall into the trap of shitting all over police (which I’m not saying isn’t warranted, but it’s bad politics) and allowing the Right to change the subject.

Focus on the guns and showing how gutless and immoral the other side is.

Pick the right and obvious battles

That's literally what the Defund the Police movement is all about. The Democrats are just so terrified of seeming "soft" on crime that they ceded the entire discussion to bad faith arguments. It's poor messaging NOW, but only because of that. Had they started by embracing it and making people understand what it actually meant (demilitarize while funding other critical underfunded services), maybe we'd have something.

No one even brings up Defund the Police anymore, except for the GOP tagging every opponent with it, and the Democrats bringing it up to show that they think it's radical leftism run amok. Which only serves to remind people about the GOP talking points anyway.

It's really hard to make any progress when you have one entire party that doesn't actually stand for anything specific. The Democrats stand for a vague concept of progress through norms and existing systems, and nothing more. There's basically no litmus test for the party, unless you stray too far to the left.

And it seems like straying from the point, but all this shit is connected. The Democrats don't exist to make real progress on issues like gun control. They'd rather fundraise on it than solve it.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

The phrase "defund the police" was an awful phrase from day one, especially when attached to horse shit like #ACAB.

Many of the ideas behind the movement were perfectly reasonable, but we are a dumb nation, and marketing matters. It would be wonderful if it didn't. It does. Again, because we're a dumb nation with the attention span of about 3 seconds.

We may be the dumbest bunch of fuckers on earth, to be honest.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I’ve said it before, but “defund the police” is a slogan that suggests an attainable outcome without a constructive solution. “All cops are bastards” is infinitely better, even if it’s perhaps not true or provocative. It has your punk/angst element against the system that implores one to not be so gray line about the issue. “Defund the police” on the other hand just welcomes more problems without solutions. I guess “reappropriate police funding” isn’t quite the catch phrase though, is it?

 

[BEAL]

https://twitter.com/dseetharaman/status/1530235850369294336?s=21&t=R9AUQLTViG1KU5QiclOKDA

https://twitter.com/dseetharaman/status/1530236144293621762?s=21&t=R9AUQLTViG1KU5QiclOKDA

 

[Irvine511]

So … stepping away from that sideshow and back to the guns and the actual incident at hand and things that could make a meaningful difference in reducing gun deaths … both in spectacular events like this as well as the day-to-day hikicides we see especially in red states, far worse on a per capita basis than “Chicago.”

I’m getting to the point where I think we need to say: “this is what you voted for, Texas. You voted for more dead children. You voted for guns to be cherished more than children. You voted for people who want to turn schools into prisons lest someone have restrictions on their hobbies and toys and Rambo fantasies.”

Gay people needed straights. Black prime needed whites. Women needed men. Trans need Cis.

We need conservative white male gun owners in red states to step up. We need allies.

How do we do this?

 

[Hewson]

So … stepping away from that sideshow and back to the guns and the actual incident at hand and things that could make a meaningful difference in reducing gun deaths … both in spectacular events like this as well as the day-to-day hikicides we see especially in red states, far worse on a per capita basis than “Chicago.”

I’m getting to the point where I think we need to say: “this is what you voted for, Texas. You voted for more dead children. You voted for guns to be cherished more than children. You voted for people who want to turn schools into prisons lest someone have restrictions on their hobbies and toys and Rambo fantasies.”

Gay people needed straights. Black prime needed whites. Women needed men. Trans need Cis.

We need conservative white male gun owners in red states to step up. We need allies.

How do we do this?

Honestly, I don't know. But maybe the fact that this happened in Texas will move the needle with some of those conservatives more than Sandy Hook did, but I have my reservations. And doubt it would be a large enough group to make a difference.

Truly responsible gun owners (regardless of their color, gender or political leaning) should be in favor of some measure of regulation for gun ownership. If you're a law abiding citizen who wants a gun for either hunting or protection (supposedly the vast majority) then why wouldn't you want some rules to keep guns away from criminals and the unstable etc.?
But the problem lies more so as Steve Kerr pointed out with politicians and gun lobbyists than with the average gun owner.
So these average gun owners need to step up and make it clear to elected officials they want to see some change so the wrong folks have a more difficult time getting these weapons, especially the type this kid used in Texas the other day.
How and will that ever happen? Doubtful.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I really don’t think you’re off to a good start if you feel you have to make a target demographic so specific. I would just stick to conservative gun owners and call it a day.

 

[Irvine511]

I really don’t think you’re off to a good start if you feel you have to make a target demographic so specific. I would just stick to conservative gun owners and call it a day.

Generally, men own more guns than women. That’s why I was specific, but if we are talking marketing, I agree.

Like, we have perfect examples from Australia and Scotland — Gun confiscation works. We need people to say, “I don’t need anAR-15. No one does.”

Or, “my dick works just fine. I don’t need an AR-15.”

Military reservists train 38 days a year to maintain a bare minimum level of proficiency. Meaning, enough to go spend 3 months training intensively before actually going to war. No hobbyist does this.

 

[iron yuppie]

I’m getting to the point where I think we need to say: “this is what you voted for, Texas. You voted for more dead children. You voted for guns to be cherished more than children. You voted for people who want to turn schools into prisons lest someone have restrictions on their hobbies and toys and Rambo fantasies.”

Gay people needed straights. Black prime needed whites. Women needed men. Trans need Cis.

We need conservative white male gun owners in red states to step up. We need allies.

How do we do this?

I think a major lesson of the Trump years is the non-ideologue conservative basically does not exist. To the pro-gun crowd, anything is acceptable collateral damage. I don't know what other conclusion can be drawn at this point.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

The messaging is so important though. Much like the cop thing, if you know you’re going to lose these people at identity politics, cut it out. It’s not a criticism on your statements or views, but a review of the effectiveness of the argument.

 

[Irvine511]

I think a major lesson of the Trump years is the non-ideologue conservative basically does not exist. To the pro-gun crowd, anything is acceptable collateral damage. I don't know what other conclusion can be drawn at this point.

I take that point, but I still think we are talking about the GOP base, which is irrational at this point, I agree, living in a hermetically seal bubble of disinformation. And Gun rights are positively pathological with this group.

However, broad support for gun control measures exists. Gun control is wildly popular. It’s the political system that is failing to respond to things that are both good and popular.

There must be some way to convince people that their hobbies aren’t worth a pile of dead 4th graders.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

i wasn't referring to you at all - i was actually taking your post as proving a point that the previous posts turning this into a "all cops are bad" shit-a-thon were bullshit. sorry for any misunderstanding - i should have quoted them to be clear.

I understand, thanks for explaining

 

[BEAL]

https://twitter.com/harikunzru/status/1530327437464281089?s=21&t=5BNinN65Nl32ROP0Stgtiw

Insane. And GOP own this

 

[Irvine511]

https://twitter.com/harikunzru/status/1530327437464281089?s=21&t=5BNinN65Nl32ROP0Stgtiw

Insane. And GOP own this

Yet more mass death unleashed by GWB.

I also think social media plays a role.

What I want to explain to lawful gun owners — and I know they are out there — is that, while I realize the gun makes you feel safe, it makes me feel less safe. I don’t trust you. I don’t trust anyone with military-grade firepower where you can shoot 45 bullets a second outside of a war zone. Every lawful gun owner is one until they’re not. I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to take my feelings towards your guns into account.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

What I want to explain to lawful gun owners — and I know they are out there — is that, while I realize the gun makes you feel safe, it makes me feel less safe. I don’t trust you. I don’t trust anyone with military-grade firepower where you can shoot 45 bullets a second outside of a war zone. Every lawful gun owner is one until they’re not. I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to take my feelings towards your guns into account.

This.

Plus, if my time watching true crime shows has taught me anything, it's that more often than not, lawful gun owners are killed not by some random maniac with a gun, but with their own gun, and by somebody they know at that, either accidentally or intentionally. Having the gun almost feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy much of the time - they think it makes them safer, but really, it puts them at even more risk of an untimely death.

 

[Bluer White]

Plus, if my time watching true crime shows has taught me anything, it's that more often than not, lawful gun owners are killed not by some random maniac with a gun, but with their own gun, and by somebody they know at that, either accidentally or intentionally. Having the gun almost feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy much of the time - they think it makes them safer, but really, it puts them at even more risk of an untimely death.

Also guilty of watching true crime shows

What new laws impacting legal gun owners are you advocating for, Moonlit?

 

[DaveC]

in canada, laws were enacted when i was very young that required gun owners to keep their guns unloaded in a locked case with a locked trigger guard. my grandpa had like a dozen guns of all kinds for hunting, he followed the law and locked them all up thoroughly, and they were never a danger to anybody except pheasants and deer.

nothing about a law like that restricts anyone's "constitutional right" to own as many guns as they want to. it would certainly have stopped any of us grandkids from trying to take one of them to do god knows what.

 

[Irvine511]

This.



Plus, if my time watching true crime shows has taught me anything, it's that more often than not, lawful gun owners are killed not by some random maniac with a gun, but with their own gun, and by somebody they know at that, either accidentally or intentionally. Having the gun almost feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy much of the time - they think it makes them safer, but really, it puts them at even more risk of an untimely death.

I know quite a bit about true crime documentaries.

Many of these crimes would never have happened had a gun not been readily available. And many murderers were once gun fetishists. These aren’t unstoppable, diabolical criminals who would have found a way no matter what. They had access to a gun. And they used it.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1531274218607988736?t=P7jFgAmfugOEFle85kBGog&s=19


You'd have to think that if they had fewer doors outside that this wouldn't have happened

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Also guilty of watching true crime shows

What new laws impacting legal gun owners are you advocating for, Moonlit?

The same kinds of gun laws that all our allies have and which seem to work just fine for them.

Hell, at this point I'm all for using the same framework the GOP wants to use to restrict/ban abortion. SCOTUS apparently thinks things like bounties and lawsuits are okay when it comes to targeting those performing or going to get abortions, and the Constitution/laws/precedents don't seem to matter to the GOP on that issue (or any other issues where they want to push restrictions and bans, like immigration or civil rights for LGBTQA+ people or so on), so fuck it, let's use that same model to go after guns and gun owners/companies. Play by their rules, 'cause it's pretty clear at this point that pleas to humanity and compassion aren't working, as that would require the GOP to actually have or show compassion and human decency to begin with.

 

[Bluer White]

The same kinds of gun laws that all our allies have and which seem to work just fine for them.

Hell, at this point I'm all for using the same framework the GOP wants to use to restrict/ban abortion. SCOTUS apparently thinks things like bounties and lawsuits are okay when it comes to targeting those performing or going to get abortions, and the Constitution/laws/precedents don't seem to matter to the GOP on that issue (or any other issues where they want to push restrictions and bans, like immigration or civil rights for LGBTQA+ people or so on), so fuck it, let's use that same model to go after guns and gun owners/companies. Play by their rules, 'cause it's pretty clear at this point that pleas to humanity and compassion aren't working, as that would require the GOP to actually have or show compassion and human decency to begin with.

Thanks for your hot take, Moonlit