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Old 01-15-2009, 05:42 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Chemistry, biology, and thousands of years of human sociological and cultural development are incidental?

Huh.
Chemistry has nothing to say about homosexuality.

Biology says that there are millions of years of homosexual behaviour in other animals.

Human sociological and cultural development show that homosexuality is a part of humanity, that it has been practiced across most cultures, often in a socially acceptable fashion, and modern society doesn't make value judgements about ones sexual orientation. Invoking social development, which I might consider to be increasing liberties and equality, as a justification for holding back gay marriage is nonsense.

When you say thousands of years, are you deliberately ignoring the millions of years when our ancestors were living in close knit groups, or the evidence that monogamy stretches back into our history? One could interpret you to mean that when God created man 6000 years ago he made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
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Old 01-15-2009, 06:16 PM   #122
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Worth repeating

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again, gender is inconsequential to the quality and worth of the relationship. there are horrible gay relationships just as there are horrible straight relationships. but the point is that those horrible straight people have options that a gay couple is denied based upon a difference that is not only involuntary and harmless but also incidental to the actual criteria at hand.
Well said.
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:13 AM   #123
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I love it that you can be so smug while being so obtuse to the fact that a thousand years ago the definition of marriage was completely different than what you want now.
So a thousand years ago men and women didn't marry each other?

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Chemistry has nothing to say about homosexuality.
But it has more than a little to do with gender differences, wouldn't you say? Which was my point.

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Invoking social development as a justification for holding back gay marriage is nonsense.
So is the willful ignorance of biology, chemistry, sociology, etc.
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:18 AM   #124
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Double Post.
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:19 AM   #125
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I'd say, why can't we all just get along, but that would be silly, and highly naive. We can't and won't.

I will just say that I'm glad there are internet forums for tedious trench warfare of this kind. Nobody gets hurt here. I'll not be reading this one any further though.
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Old 01-16-2009, 07:48 AM   #126
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So a thousand years ago men and women didn't marry each other?
A thousand years ago men married women, men married multiple women and there were still gay people.

Ethnic cleansing, racism, misogyny, homophobia, slavery and human sacrifice have all been part of traditional cultures at various places and times; your appeal to tradition is unjustifiable.
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But it has more than a little to do with gender differences, wouldn't you say? Which was my point.
Thats a question of biology, and it is well documented that gay brains are different from straight brains, if you want to invoke gender differences you have to be able to recognise gay, bisexual and transgender people.


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So is the willful ignorance of biology, chemistry, sociology, etc.
You know that you are being biased as fuck.

Biology says homosexuality is natural, you don't derive a moral justification from nature, but its a fact. Chemistry has nothing to do with it, developmental biology is distinct. Sociology, while not a science, demonstrates a wide range of human sexual behaviour and forms of marriage.

You are ignoring the evidence to further your reactionary agenda, it has reached a point where you are clinging to a word and trying to claim it for traditional family values while undermining the integrity of gay families.

It doesn't matter that labeling you as a soft bigot reinforces your opinions, your opinion is doomed to obsolescence, societies can move forward and gay marriage eventually becomes normalised; so the minority of the population that is gay can have recognition for their relationships and straight people can continue to get married.

Gay marriage has very little effect on my life as a heterosexual man, it doesn't deny me any rights or cheapen my concept of marriage, although if Australia would jump on board it would make this countries hard wired conservatism a little more bearable.
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:10 AM   #127
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A thousand years ago men married women, men married multiple women and there were still gay people.

Ethnic cleansing, racism, misogyny, homophobia, slavery and human sacrifice have all been part of traditional cultures at various places and times; your appeal to tradition is unjustifiable.
But a fallacious appeal to tradition is all the "biased" have left, and so they will just repeat that mantra ad infinitum.
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Old 01-16-2009, 09:42 AM   #128
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So a thousand years ago men and women didn't marry each other?
No. Fathers married off their daughters. Men gained property and married many women.

But keep holding tight onto that 1000 year fantasy definition...
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:26 AM   #129
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So a thousand years ago men and women didn't marry each other?


would you relationship -- i'm assuming a relationship built on love, trust, choice, equality, and respect -- be at all recognizable to a marriage done over a thousand years ago when the goal was property and having enough children to work the farm?
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:15 PM   #130
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Obama once supported gay marriage

Posted by Michael Paulson January 15, 2009

Barack Obama, who while campaigning for president attributed his opposition to same-sex marriage to his deeply held religious beliefs, in 1996 told a gay newspaper in Chicago that he supported same-sex marriage.

This is from a story in the Windy City Times, referring to questionnaires Obama filled out for Outlines, a Chicago newspaper that no longer exists, and IMPACT, a gay rights organization, when he was a candidate for state Senate:

"Obama's answer to the 1996 Outlines question was very clear: “I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages.” There was no use of “civil unions,” no compromise whatsoever. The IMPACT marriage question was a bit less direct. It asked if Obama would support a Marriage Resolution being considered at the time, which read in part “Because marriage is a basic human right and an individual personal choice, RESOLVED, the state should not interfere with same-gender couples who [ choose ] to marry and share fully and equally in the rights, responsibilities and commitment of civil marriage.” Obama responded: “I would support such a resolution.”

But by 2004, Obama had changed his tune, telling a radio interviewer, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

Gay rights did not play a prominent role during the campaign, but the issue has gained prominence since California voters overturned same-sex marriage in that state on Election Day. Obama drew criticism for choosing Rick Warren, an evangelical pastor who opposes same-sex marriage, to give the invocation at the inauguration; he then chose V. Gene Robinson, an Episcopal bishop who is gay and who supports same-sex marriage, to give the invocation at a pre-inaugural event Sunday.
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:35 PM   #131
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^ Of course he did/does. It's too politically dangerous to support it right now.
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:43 PM   #132
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what's the difference between myself and Memphis and Martha and Steve?

the question remains.

Since nathan found it easier to ignore this question, rather than address it, I'll have a go.

What Irvine and Memphis have that Martha and Steve don't have:
--taller average height
--the desire to be parents

What Martha and Steve have that Irvine and Memphis don't have:
--higher average age
--more motorcycles in the garage
--full protection under the US and state Constitutions and state and federal laws

That's all I can come up with.

Did I miss anything?
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:00 PM   #133
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That's all I can come up with.

Did I miss anything?


we both have partners who aren't the biggest of U2 fans, but seem to like us anyway.

oh, wait, that's a similarity.



oh, you guys live in California and we don't.
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:53 PM   #134
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nathan, as a fellow religious parent I have a question.

If your teenaged son or daughter were gay, how would that affect the guidance and advice that you would give him or her concerning intimate relationships specifically? What would be the moral vision and ideal there that you would offer, and how and why might it be different from the one you would offer your other children?
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:03 PM   #135
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I like the fact Obama is crossing over the other side. You have to hear the other side and let them speak in order to make progress and get what you want. If you shut them out and don't include them in things, nothing will get resolved. While I am against this anti-gay bashing person, I think it's a smart political move for Obama to include EVERYONE even if that persons political beliefs are different. The Bush administration for the most part shut out the liberals. Obama is a making an effort to include the conservatives. You have to for political success, I think.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:44 AM   #136
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Here's Reverend Robinson's, why wasn't that shown on the HBO concert? Assuming it was at that event, the photo I saw with this link looked like it was. Maybe it was a separate event.

A Prayer for the Nation and Our Next President, Barack Obama
By
Jan 18, 2009

A Prayer for the Nation and Our Next President, Barack Obama



By The Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson, Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire



Opening Inaugural Event

Lincoln Memorial, Washington, DC

January 18, 2009



Welcome to Washington! The fun is about to begin, but first, please join me in pausing for a moment, to ask God’s blessing upon our nation and our next president.


O God of our many understandings, we pray that you will…



Bless us with tears – for a world in which over a billion people exist on less than a dollar a day, where young women from many lands are beaten and raped for wanting an education, and thousands die daily from malnutrition, malaria, and AIDS.


Bless us with anger – at discrimination, at home and abroad, against refugees and immigrants, women, people of color, gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people.


Bless us with discomfort – at the easy, simplistic “answers” we’ve preferred to hear from our politicians, instead of the truth, about ourselves and the world, which we need to face if we are going to rise to the challenges of the future.


Bless us with patience – and the knowledge that none of what ails us will be “fixed” anytime soon, and the understanding that our new president is a human being, not a messiah.


Bless us with humility – open to understanding that our own needs must always be balanced with those of the world.


Bless us with freedom from mere tolerance – replacing it with a genuine respect and warm embrace of our differences, and an understanding that in our diversity, we are stronger.


Bless us with compassion and generosity – remembering that every religion’s God judges us by the way we care for the most vulnerable in the human community, whether across town or across the world.

And God, we give you thanks for your child Barack, as he assumes the office of President of the United States.

Give him wisdom beyond his years, and inspire him with Lincoln’s reconciling leadership style, President Kennedy’s ability to enlist our best efforts, and Dr. King’s dream of a nation for ALL the people.


Give him a quiet heart, for our Ship of State needs a steady, calm captain in these times.

Give him stirring words, for we will need to be inspired and motivated to make the personal and common sacrifices necessary to facing the challenges ahead.


Make him color-blind, reminding him of his own words that under his leadership, there will be neither red nor blue states, but the United States.

Help him remember his own oppression as a minority, drawing on that experience of discrimination, that he might seek to change the lives of those who are still its victims.



Give him the strength to find family time and privacy, and help him remember that even though he is president, a father only gets one shot at his daughters’ childhoods.

And please, God, keep him safe. We know we ask too much of our presidents, and we’re asking FAR too much of this one. We know the risk he and his wife are taking for all of us, and we implore you, O good and great God, to keep him safe. Hold him in the palm of your hand – that he might do the work we have called him to do, that he might find joy in this impossible calling, and that in the end, he might lead us as a nation to a place of integrity, prosperity and peace.



AMEN.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:47 AM   #137
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After taking criticism for starting Sunday's "We Are One" concert after the remarks by openly gay Bishop V. Gene Robinson, HBO is going to rebroadcast the event with Robinson's invocation. The entire event will reair on HBO2 on Wednesday at 11:30 p.m., as well as at an unspecified time this weekend on HBO. It will also be available on hbo.com starting Wednesday, Jan. 21

According to an HBO release: "Rev. Robinson’s invocation was not included in the live presentation due to a miscommunication within the Presidential Inaugural Committee. Says Presidential Inaugural Committee communications director Josh Earnest, 'We had always intended and planned for Rt. Rev. Robinson’s invocation to be included in the televised portion of yesterday’s program. We regret the error in executing this plan – but are gratified that hundreds of thousands of people who gathered on the mall heard his eloquent prayer for our nation that was a fitting start to our event.'"

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Old 01-21-2009, 10:30 AM   #138
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Rev. Sharon Watkins is delivering the sermon at the prayer service this morning...my Dad knows her well as she is the General Minister and President of our denomination, the Christian Church Disciples of Christ. I'm excited my little denomination has been given such a role by the new President
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:41 AM   #139
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Obama White House Calls for Repealing Defense of Marriage Act
Wednesday, January 21, 2009
By Matt Cover CNS News Service


Unveiling his agenda Tuesday on the newly refurbished version of the White House Web site, Obama called for the repeal of the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), as well as the extension of more than 1,000 federal marriage benefits and of adoption rights to homosexual couples.

The new administration laid out its plans on the Web site--whitehouse.gov--at 12:01 p.m. EST, during Obama’s swearing-in ceremony.

The site’s “Civil Rights” section lists a number of items long on the homosexual agenda, including expanding federal hate-crimes laws, repealing the ban on homosexuals in the military and extending the definition of workplace discrimination to include sexual orientation.

In the section entitled “Support for the LGBT (Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgendered) Community,” the Web site says Obama wants full inclusion of homosexual couples under federal law.

“President Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples legal rights and privileges equal to those of married couples,” the Web site says.

“Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100-plus federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples.” the Web site says.

Among those federal legal rights are the ability to file joint tax returns, own property, and buy health insurance together.

Obama also favors granting adoption rights to homosexual couples, saying that children benefit from a healthy home, regardless of whether the “parents” are homosexual or not.

“President Obama believes that we must ensure adoption rights for all couples and individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation,” the site said. “He thinks that a child will benefit from a healthy and loving home, whether the parents are gay or not,” the website reads.

Obama further promises to distribute contraceptives through the nation’s public health system, saying the move is vital to combating HIV and AIDS – and the new president wants contraceptives to be distributed in federal prisons.

“The president will support common-sense approaches including age-appropriate sex education that includes information about contraception, combating infection within our prison population through education and contraception, and distributing contraceptives through our public health system.”

Obama renewed his pledge to expand federal hate-crimes laws to include sexual orientation – an effort he spearheaded as a freshman U.S. senator. The bill that Obama introduced in the Senate, the Matthew Shepard Act, would make it a federal hate-crime to commit violence against someone because of their sexual orientation.

“President Obama and Vice President Biden will strengthen federal hate crimes legislation, (and) expand hate crimes protection by passing the Matthew Shepard Act,” the site says.

Obama also wants to lift the federal ban on needle exchanges, which provides intravenous drug addicts with free, clean needles in an effort to ensure they abuse illegal drugs safely.

“The president also supports lifting the federal ban on needle exchange, which could dramatically reduce rates of infection among drug users.”

The new White House site confirms that Obama plans to work towards his desire to repeal a federal law that prevents homosexuals from serving in the military. Obama says that the only test for military service should be patriotism.

“The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve. Discrimination should be prohibited,” the site says.

“The president will work with military leaders to repeal the current policy and ensure it helps accomplish our national defense goals.”

Whether homosexuals are ever allowed to serve in the military won’t be Obama’s call, however. Only Congress can enact such a policy affecting the military.
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:37 AM   #140
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here's his stated LGBT agenda, looks pretty ambitious:


Quote:
Support for the LGBT Community

"While we have come a long way since the Stonewall riots in 1969, we still have a lot of work to do. Too often, the issue of LGBT rights is exploited by those seeking to divide us. But at its core, this issue is about who we are as Americans. It's about whether this nation is going to live up to its founding promise of equality by treating all its citizens with dignity and respect."

-- Barack Obama, June 1, 2007

* Expand Hate Crimes Statutes: In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported and made up more than 15 percent of such crimes. President Obama cosponsored legislation that would expand federal jurisdiction to include violent hate crimes perpetrated because of race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, or physical disability. As a state senator, President Obama passed tough legislation that made hate crimes and conspiracy to commit them against the law.

* Fight Workplace Discrimination: President Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and believes that our anti-discrimination employment laws should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. While an increasing number of employers have extended benefits to their employees' domestic partners, discrimination based on sexual orientation in the workplace occurs with no federal legal remedy. The President also sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

* Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples: President Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples legal rights and privileges equal to those of married couples. Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions. These rights and benefits include the right to assist a loved one in times of emergency, the right to equal health insurance and other employment benefits, and property rights.

* Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage: President Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment in 2006 which would have defined marriage as between a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried couples.

* Repeal Don't Ask-Don't Tell: President Obama agrees with former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff John Shalikashvili and other military experts that we need to repeal the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve. Discrimination should be prohibited. The U.S. government has spent millions of dollars replacing troops kicked out of the military because of their sexual orientation. Additionally, more than 300 language experts have been fired under this policy, including more than 50 who are fluent in Arabic. The President will work with military leaders to repeal the current policy and ensure it helps accomplish our national defense goals.

* Expand Adoption Rights: President Obama believes that we must ensure adoption rights for all couples and individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. He thinks that a child will benefit from a healthy and loving home, whether the parents are gay or not.

* Promote AIDS Prevention: In the first year of his presidency, President Obama will develop and begin to implement a comprehensive national HIV/AIDS strategy that includes all federal agencies. The strategy will be designed to reduce HIV infections, increase access to care and reduce HIV-related health disparities. The President will support common sense approaches including age-appropriate sex education that includes information about contraception, combating infection within our prison population through education and contraception, and distributing contraceptives through our public health system. The President also supports lifting the federal ban on needle exchange, which could dramatically reduce rates of infection among drug users. President Obama has also been willing to confront the stigma -- too often tied to homophobia -- that continues to surround HIV/AIDS.

* Empower Women to Prevent HIV/AIDS: In the United States, the percentage of women diagnosed with AIDS has quadrupled over the last 20 years. Today, women account for more than one quarter of all new HIV/AIDS diagnoses. President Obama introduced the Microbicide Development Act, which will accelerate the development of products that empower women in the battle against AIDS. Microbicides are a class of products currently under development that women apply topically to prevent transmission of HIV and other infections.


clearly, it's missing the politically toxic "M-word," but what a change from the Republicans. and it's clearly liberal, what with needle exchange programs and all.
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