Obama's pandering is really making me sick! Allows anti-gay activist to speak

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Apparently, Obama realizes that a stance on one issue does not completely define a person. Or does it?

Or does it?

That is a fair question.

I know you are one that believes gay people deserve equal protection and I believe equal rights, too.

Rep. Barney Frank, the first openly gay member of Congress, isn’t happy about the “high honor” Barack Obama has bestowed on the Rev. Rick Warren, who recently likened gay marriage to incest and pedophilia. This isn’t a speech at a forum, the congressman points out, but a role that is “traditionally given as a mark of great respect.”

“Mr. Warren compared same-sex couples to incest. I found that deeply offensive and unfair,” Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said in a broadcast interview.

“If he was inviting the Rev. Warren to participate in a forum and to make a speech, that would be a good thing,” Frank said. “But being singled out to give the prayer at the inauguration is a high honor. It has traditionally given as a mark of great respect. And, yes, I think it was wrong to single him out for this mark of respect.”



Pedophilia is a crime

and I believe incest is illegal, too.


By equating homosexuality to these
he is implying that gay people should suffer the same consequences that people who commit crimes and illegal acts.


If Warren compared mixed race couples to pedophilia and incest would he be given the same pass by as many people?
 
Deep your being unfair, society hasn't progressed that far, when we are living purpose driven lives; pushing God into our science classes and making decisions about community standards, for out children, we can have an honest and frank discussion about the homosexual agenda to subvert our values and steal our words; until then lets unite for change and hope, your questioning is divisive and intolerant; not unlike the angry racist homosexuals who went out to attack innocent black churchgoers after prop 8.
 
Define Pandering: In politics, portrayal of one's views to fit in line with a certain crowd of voters the candidate is attempting to impress.

I only bring up pandering as the thread title reads "Obama's pandering..."

On inauguration day, as Rick Warren will, I will celebrate, offer goodwill and pray for my new president.
 
Those expecting Obama to govern from far left, prepare to be disappointed.

I've always felt he was more centrist than people thought.

I don't know what Obama "really" believes regarding gay marriage. . .my hunch is he would support it, if he felt like it wasn't politically toxic to Purpose-Driven folk in this country. I would also wonder if this isn't true of Warren as well. He's got a lot of money riding on his legitimacy in the evangelical community and he's already more "liberal" than many of the others in that community. I know it's not right. But I do think that's the way it is.

But I do believe change is coming. . .gay marriage WILL happen.
 
I knew for the last year that Obama was not as principled as he let on. His compromise is ego-centrically driven because he feels he can be the GREAT MAN that unifies people, even if the compromises forced on people are unjust.

Hilary's nomination

First, he nominates that vicious thug Hilary Clinton as Secretary of State, when her views are aggressive and cowardly, threatening to obliterate Iran if it attacks Israel; if taken on first principles, this means that, if one's ally were attacked, one would be right to destroy the attacker of that ally; on this basis, Iran would be in its rights to obliterate Israel for attacking the Palestinian people since 1948 with ethnic cleansing, colonization and occupation. The right-wing mainstream media likes to blame everything on Hamas, but that group is only 21 years old folks. If fundamentalist Jews who felt it was okay to mistreat and murder Palestinians for decades believed in compromise or a fair peace, they could have reached it decades before Hamas, which is actually still a reasonable group, despite its ethical problems.

Let us suppose Hilary was lying and that she really cared for Muslim peoples and nations, then she proved herself more willing to pander to nationalist and American Jewish fundamentalist fears than Obama; she's still proven herself a bad choice.

I would much rather have had the brave Republican Senator of Nebraska, Chuck Hagel, who is retiring in January 2009; he bravely admitted supporting the war was a mistake, criticized Bush at every turn (more than even McCain), supported Obama as President against the wishes of his own party, and decried Israel's 2006 massacre of over 1,000 innocent Lebanese when most Dems were too busy kissing up to American Jewish fundamentalists instead of standing for human rights.

Obama could have picked someone with honor, but he went for the very political choice of Hilary to please nutcase nationalist supporters of her and prevent her criticism of him in Congress. As Jon Stewart pointed out, Hilary and Barack agreed on nearly every domestic issue; international affairs was the only real division between them. Hilary's more likely to mess it up, unless the idealistic side of her wins and she actually cares about justice for the Palestinians.

Let's not forget that the underlying story of this campaign, despite McCain's unforgivable selection of that racist bigot Sarah Palin as his running mate, was that Hilary was more willing to play dirty with racism than even McCain. It was she who brought up Bill Ayers and exploited Rev. Wright on Fox News, even though both men are American heroes in standing for social justice and not hypocritical American nationalism. Yes, I said it; Hilary Clinton's behavior was more shameful than that of McCain.

Inviting Rev. Rick Warren to the inauguration
Far more disgusting is Obama's decision to invite an anti-gay bigot like Rick Warren. It's not enough that Obama, in cowardly fashion, dismissed Rev. Jeremiah Wright, but he goes so far as invite a leader of the bigoted community that supports him.

Obama says it's about bringing people together. Since he's proud of Lincoln, I'll say a parallel would be if Lincoln said, as a compromise, that slavery could exist in a few states after the civil war as a compromise with the misguided South. There are certain things over which one does not compromise. I'm not gay, but I have seen gay people in hiding and have seen stories about them. They suffer enough in the shadows due to a society that shames them; they don't deserve to be treated this way.

It's obvious Obama truly believes that gay marriage is perfectly okay, but that he took on the political stance of only accepting straight marriage and civil unions for gays as a compromise with America's bigoted aspects. You don't bridge that gap by appeasing these sentiments. You eradicate them by proving they have nothing to fear by allowing these people equal rights and fighting for them.
Obama's just like John Kerry or that shameful President of the '90s Bill Clinton, after that President failed to get rid of the ban on gays in the military and got all conservative to win reelection; at least Bill tried, though.

Furthermore, Rick Warren is an egocentric windbag. Anyone who thinks he's generous and good-hearted is dumb enough to think Sarah Palin is genuine and down-to-earth; these people are obviously not good at reading people. They're both phony power-hungry freaks. I'm not saying to not engage Rick Warren, but this is an important symbolic moment. Gay people aren't trying to take away fundamentalist Christians' rights, but fundamentalist Christians are trying to destroy gays, as they have all non-Christians.

Enough! Stand up for what's right, Obama! Be cautious and economize your power, but don't sacrifice what's right for what's obviously wrong.

There could have been plenty of reverends or pastors that accept gays or don't vocally hate them from which he could choose. Instead Obama picked a guy politically designed to appeal to those who voted against him with the wrong tools. What's wrong with giving people health care or jobs? Why continue this culture war?

I was very happy to hear you go ahead with health care and environmental protection, but this sets my expectations back. Shame on you, Mr. Obama.



Thank you for being so tolerant :)
 
Do you believe that Warren would be granted this honour if he equated blacks or Jews to pedophiles?

Seeing the good in everyone is admirable- but I would guess that it is far more difficult for gay people to see the issue from that perspective, considering some of the things that Rick Warren has said.
 
I haven't read it but I think it's about asking yourself why you're here and what your purpose is in the world and discovering that and living accordingly.

This is what it says on the book web site

A groundbreaking manifesto on the meaning of life.

The most basic question everyone faces in life is Why am I here? What is my purpose? Self-help books suggest that people should look within, at their own desires and dreams, but Rick Warren says the starting place must be with God and his eternal purposes for each life. Real meaning and significance comes from understanding and fulfilling God’s purposes for putting us on earth.

The Purpose-Driven Life takes the groundbreaking message of the award-winning Purpose-Driven Church and goes deeper, applying it to the lifestyle of individual Christians. This book helps readers understand God’s incredible plan for their lives. Warren enables them to see the big picture of what life is all about and begin to live the life God created them to live.

The Purpose-Driven Life is a manifesto for Christian living in the 21st century...a lifestyle based on eternal purposes, not cultural values. Using biblical stories and letting the Bible speak for itself, Warren clearly explains God’s five purposes for each of us:

* We were planned for God’s pleasure, so your first purpose is to offer real worship.
* We were formed for God’s family, so your second purpose is to enjoy real fellowship.
* We were created to become like Christ, so your third purpose is to learn real discipleship.
* We were shaped for serving God, so your fourth purpose is to practice real ministry.
* We were made for a mission, so your fifth purpose is to live out real evangelism.

This long-anticipated book is the life-message of Rick Warren, founding pastor of Saddleback Church. Written in a captivating devotional style, the book is divided into 40 short chapters that can be read as a daily devotional, studied by small groups, and used by churches participating in the nationwide 40 Days of Purpose campaigns.
 
Do you believe that Warren would be granted this honour if he equated blacks or Jews to pedophiles?

I believe that Warren has determined what sin is in his own mind and that he perceives all sin as being equal in the eyes of God.

I believe that it would be very difficult for me to like the man if I were gay.

Most of the world does not equate gay marriage with civil rights or racism. It appears that Obama does not either.
 
Biden says he'll be different vice president - CNN.com

King: There has been much controversy over the selection of Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at the inaugural.

He's been a guest on this show an awful lot, and he supported California's Proposition 8, a measure that outlaws gay marriage. He is also very opposed to abortion. I know the gay community in America appears to be up in arms. What do you make of this?

Biden: Well, I'd make of it [as] Barack Obama keeping his commitment.

Barack Obama said you've got to reach out. You've got to reach a hand of friendship across the aisle and across philosophies in this country.

We can't continue to be a red and blue country. We can't be divided like we have been. And he's made good on his promise.

And I would say to the gay and lesbian community, they have nothing to worry about. Barack Obama, every aspect of his life, every aspect of his public life, and every commitment he's made relating to equality for all people, will be things that he will stick with and that they should view this in the spirit in which he offered the opportunity to -- to Mr. Warren.
 
I believe that Warren has determined what sin is in his own mind and that he perceives all sin as being equal in the eyes of God.

I believe that it would be very difficult for me to like the man if I were gay.

Most of the world does not equate gay marriage with civil rights or racism. It appears that Obama does not either.

I think you've stated the situation quite succinctly.

I really do believe that many gay-marriage opponents are NOT seething with conscious or unconscious hate towards gays. They just don't know any better. I've said this before and I'll say it again: most people equate prejudice/discrimination with hatred and it's simply not true, just as it cannot solely be equated with ignorance. Prejudice comes in many forms and at least one of them is well intentioned and "nice." Believe me I was surrounded by some of the nicest, gentlest racists growing up. These people didn't "hate" black people. They just knew that it was wrong for me to be dating anyone other than that one other black girl in my class. They were not bad people. They were just wrong.

It doesn't make it any more okay or any less hurtful but I do believe its important to recognize that prejudice towards homosexuals can come from places other than virulent hatred. It may be easier and make us feel better to demonize the enemy, but to win the war we have to KNOW the enemy. I'm not saying we shouldn't call people out on their prejudicial views, but we shouldn't assume we know where those views are coming from.
 
I think what bothers me the most is that Obama squandered a great opportunity to give the "Religious Left" an opportunity to be, for lack of a better term, "authentically Christian." Instead, Obama has merely reaffirmed the rather offensive notion that the Religious Right get to set the tone for what passes as "Christian" and what isn't. For a president-elect that likes to talk about "inclusivity," I don't particularly think that he thought this through entirely. I understand his motivation with Warren, but perhaps Obama could have balanced it out by adding another minister with more "inclusive" values? After all, nobody says that there has to be "one" minister anymore, considering some weddings often have more than one to accommodate interfaith couples. But, alas, I guess that juggling two competing thoughts is still too difficult for the political sphere.
 
I believe that Warren has determined what sin is in his own mind and that he perceives all sin as being equal in the eyes of God.

I hope that his Creator sees it the same way when Warren comes up for judgment day.
 
I understand his motivation with Warren, but perhaps Obama could have balanced it out by adding another minister with more "inclusive" values? After all, nobody says that there has to be "one" minister anymore, considering some weddings often have more than one to accommodate interfaith couples. But, alas, I guess that juggling two competing thoughts is still too difficult for the political sphere.


There is only one invocation = Warren

and one benediction = Lowery


this would be a completely different discussion
if Lowery were giving the invocation and Warren the benediction.



oh, and by the way, Warren is left, for many.
 
If you are going to get personal about it.


I think his 40 day program for "A Purpose Driven Life" should have devoted one day to a 1200 calorie a day diet and exercise program for people his size. :shrug:
 
This language has now been removed from Warren's website:

warrenchurchbansgays.jpg
 
I have chosen to attend several different denominations over my life time

A religion is a voluntary association.

I can choose to be Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, etc. by electing to participate in those belief systems and following their rituals and practices.

I can not choose to be black or gay, or female.

If I were attending Saddleback Church and I heard Warren equating gays to pedophiles I would be certain this person was misguided and was bearing false witness. I would no longer attend his services.
 
The shabby church also took down some of the lies it tells to children
What about dinosaurs?

Question: How do they fit in with the idea that God created the world rather than the world evolving on it’s own? Why doesn’t the Bible talk about dinosaurs?

Answer: The Bible tells in Genesis 1 that God made the world in seven days, and that he made all of the animals on the fifth day and the sixth day. All of the animals were created at the same time, so they all walked the earth at the same time. I know that the pictures we all grew up with in the movies were that dinosaurs roamed a lifeless, volcanic planet. Remember these are just pictures drawn by someone today! The Bible’s picture is that dinosaurs and man lived together on the earth, an earth that was filled with vegetation and beauty.

What happened to the dinosaurs? The scientific record lets us know that they obviously became extinct through some kind of cataclysmic event on the earth. Many scientists theorize that this may have been an asteroid striking the earth, while many Christians wonder if this event could have been the worldwide flood in Noah’s day. No one can know for certain what this event was.

Although it cannot be stated with certainty, it appears that dinosaurs may have actually been mentioned in the Bible. The Bible uses names like “behemoth” and “tannin.” Behemoth means kingly, gigantic beasts. Tannin is a term that includes dragon-like animals and the great sea creatures such as whales, giant squid, and marine reptiles like the plesiosaurs that may have become extinct. The Bible’s best description of a dinosaur-like animal is in Job chapter 40. We don’t know for certain if these are actually dinosaurs or are some other large creatures that became extinct.

This should not sound so strange. After all, God tells us that he created all the land animals on the sixth day of creation, the same day that he created mankind. Man and dinosaurs lived at the same time. There was never a time when dinosaurs ruled the earth. From the very beginning of creation, God gave man dominion over all that was made, even over the dinosaurs.

“For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.” Exodus 20:11

“All things were made through him, and without him nothing was made that was made.” John 1:3

“Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feed on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God.” Job 40:15-19 (NIV)
Is evolution part of God’s plan?

Question: Why is it not OK for evolution to be part of God’s plan? I don’t understand what the problem is: couldn’t God have used the process of evolution as the way that he created the earth?

Answer: When I was a new believer in Christ, I had some very strong feelings about the issue of evolution. Much as you have expressed, I believed that evolution and the account of the Bible about creation could exist along side of each other very well. I just didn’t see what the big argument was all about. I had some friends who had been studying the Bible much longer than I had who saw it differently. But they didn’t push me or argue with me, they simply challenged me to take some time to look into the facts and study the issues carefully. I’ll always appreciate them for that, because this was an issue that I had to really think through. Eventually, I came to the conclusion, through my study of the Bible and science, that the two positions of evolution and creation just could not fit together. There are some real problems with the idea that God created through evolution.

I would encourage you to take some time to study this issue. I found that, although I’d understood the science side of the equation, I needed to take some more time to read what the Bible really had to say about this subject. Not having taken the time to really read the Bible, I was very ignorant about what it had to say. Let me give you one example. I discovered that the problem of sin, as addressed in the Bible, was much more serious than I had previously thought. When I realized that the world was clearly a perfect place as God created it, and that this perfection was ruined by the sinful choice of Adam and Eve, it really started me thinking. Did the Bible teach evolution or did it teach the creation of a first man and woman named Adam and Eve? If we evolved, which human being would have made the choice that brought sin into this world? If Adam and Eve were just allegorical pictures, why did the New Testament place some much importance upon them as responsible and real individuals? Since God clearly says that it is our sin that brought death into our world, how could there have been death for billions of years before the arrival of the first man who sinned on the earth? As I asked questions about this issue and studied what the Bible had to say, I found it to be one of the greatest times of learning in my life as a new believer. My prayer is that you will have this same experience!

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Gen. 1:1

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” John 1:3

If you want to study this further...
Here’s a web site that you might want to check out:
Home - Probe Ministries (One article that is especially thought provoking discusses “Darwin’s Black Box”).
And our favourite
What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

The Bible very clearly says that homosexuality is a sin.

“Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin.” (Lev. 18:22 TLB)

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor 6:9-11 NIV)

While all sin is destructive, Romans 6 warns us of the great dangers in sexual sin when it says, “Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body.” (1 Cor 6:18 NLT) This includes not only homosexuality, but all sexual immorality: adultery, sex without marriage, pornography. We must not act as if homosexuality is the only serious sexual sin, and we must not act as if homosexuality is not a serious sexual sin.

I’ve heard it asked, “Isn’t being homosexual something that a person is physically born with?” First of all, there are absolutely no facts to support this claim. From time to time studies have been reported in the news that seemed to indicate this, but every one of these studies has proven to be wrong. Secondly, even if some physical difference were discovered, it would be no excuse for sin. We know that some people can develop a stronger physical addiction to alcohol than others, but that’s obviously no excuse for living an alcoholic lifestyle.

Finally, a word about being judgmental. It’s not judgmental to say that what the Bible calls a sin is a sin, that’s just telling the truth. Not being willing to talk to someone caught up in sin, or not believing that they can be forgiven, or thinking that you are not just as much in need of Jesus as they are ... that’s being judgmental.

Because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the Lordship and leadership of Jesus in one’s life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church. That does not mean they cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives.

In equal desire to follow Jesus, we also would not accept a couple into membership at Saddleback who were not willing to repent of the sexual sin of living together before marriage. That does not mean this couple cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives.
 
I think what bothers me the most is that Obama squandered a great opportunity to give the "Religious Left" an opportunity to be, for lack of a better term, "authentically Christian." Instead, Obama has merely reaffirmed the rather offensive notion that the Religious Right get to set the tone for what passes as "Christian" and what isn't. For a president-elect that likes to talk about "inclusivity," I don't particularly think that he thought this through entirely. I understand his motivation with Warren, but perhaps Obama could have balanced it out by adding another minister with more "inclusive" values? After all, nobody says that there has to be "one" minister anymore, considering some weddings often have more than one to accommodate interfaith couples. But, alas, I guess that juggling two competing thoughts is still too difficult for the political sphere.

True.

oh, and by the way, Warren is left, for many.

Also true.
 
Heartwarming story about Warren:

That Weird Hug from Rick Warren
by Jeff Lutes

ACCORDING TO THE FIRST three books of the New Testament, Judas identified Jesus to the soldiers by means of a kiss. An act of ultimate betrayal, that peck on the cheek led to the arrest of Jesus.

I know how Jesus felt. Well, sort of.

On June 15, 2008, mega-church pastor Rick Warren embraced me and my husband, and each of our three young children. Then, he apportioned his considerable power and influence to eliminate our California marriage. But the story really begins six months before that hug of pretense.

In December of the previous year, I wrote a letter to Warren outlining my plan to bring a group of gay and lesbian couples, and their children, to visit his Saddleback Church over Father’s Day weekend. I expressed our intent to attend worship on Sunday, and my hope that he and some families in his congregation would share a meal with us in an effort to reach beyond our differences and focus instead on the commonalities we share as parents and people of faith. In due course, I began a series of phone conversations with Warren’s chief of staff. Over the next several weeks, we agreed that eight of our families would eat lunch on June 16 with Warren, his wife Kay, and six of their staff members. After the family meal, eight people from our group would then convene for a 90 minute conversation with Warren, his wife, and the six other church leaders. Here’s where it gets interesting.

The week before our visit, Newsweek senior editor Lisa Miller published an article that contained a single sentence about Warren’s upcoming get-together with a bunch of gay dads. Suddenly, the tone and demeanor from those paid to protect Warren’s public image began to deteriorate.

First, we were told that things had changed and Warren and his wife "might" attend the meal and forum. A few days later, Warren posted a message on a religious blog saying that he never intended to meet with our families. Once we arrived in California, I called his chief of staff to discuss final details. Implausibly, I was told that Saddleback had now decided to only feed the eight people from our group who were going to be in the meeting, but not our children or spouses.

I pushed back by expressing my opinion that it was not very Christ-like to renege on our covenant after we had already traveled thousands of miles from Texas. "We’ll discuss your visit again and call you back," they said. An hour later they telephoned - this time with a much more serious tone. I felt like I was negotiating a nuclear arms deal rather than the breaking of bread and some fellowship among families. With seeming reluctance, they finally settled on feeding everyone but announced that now only four Saddleback staff members would attend and that Warren and his wife would not be among them.

They made a new offer. Warren had decided to preach from one of Saddleback’s satellite facilities, 45 minutes away from the main campus. He would sit down with my family for ten to fifteen minutes after the early service, if we agreed to attend. I accepted that offer and on Sunday morning we waited near our seats at the conclusion of church.

Eventually, I heard Warren call out my name. As I turned to greet him, he hugged me, my partner, and our three children . . . and then walked away. No conversation. Minimal eye contact. Just an awkward hug and he was gone.

The following day we tried to initiate heartfelt conversation with the four Saddleback staff members who managed to show up. From the opening moments it was clear that this was a meeting to save face without any real interest in hearing our stories or getting to know us.

That frustrating experience behind us, my husband and I were married in Malibu the next day as our kids and friends stood watch on the beach. Thanks to Warren and others who worked diligently to eliminate equality with the passage of Proposition 8, our marriage now hangs in limbo.

On January 20, Warren will lead the invocation at Obama’s inauguration. I’ll pray with him because our country and our new Commander in Chief need all the prayers we can muster. Afterwards, I’ll say another prayer - this one for Rick Warren. When I’m done, I’ll get up off my knees and keep marching until all people, all couples, and all families have the same civil rights. I won’t quit until the church and its leaders cease spreading fear and misunderstanding about lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people.

That’s my purpose driven life.

I never thought much of Warren, and this is pretty much what I'd expect from him. Wonderful Christian behaviour, really warms my heart.

Just look at this family that he didn't want to meet with, talk about unnatural, thank goodness those men's marriage is in question, and the kids look like they're being damaged too by living with a couple of gay dudes.

jl2.jpg
 
At quick glance I thought it was the guys I go to church with. They do not have a daughter though.
 
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