Obama General Discussion, vol. 5

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by mama cass

are you kidding me?!

Not in the slightest.

The political spectrum is a circle.

[mama cass]

yeah i know the political spectrum is a circle, and there are a great deal of similarities between extreme left and extreme right, i.e. Hitler's national socialism etc.

however, current left-wing Euro policies certainly don't fit into that category right now, unless you can give me some examples i'm not aware of...

pretty much, the American left are like the Euro right, and the American right are just, well, batshit crazy (to the average European like myself)

i could go on about welfare and social policies, etc... but that would be stating the obvious...

maybe when the American right is willing to pay as much tax as the Euro left, we can talk about it some more

[mama cass]

anyway, back on the surveillance issue... the conspiracy theorists weren't wrong were they...

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by mama cass

however, current left-wing Euro policies certainly don't fit into that category right now, unless you can give me some examples i'm not aware of...

Look at the terms in which hiphop wrote about Obama. And then note how central race is to his assessment.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Look at the terms in which hiphop wrote about Obama. And then note how central race is to his assessment.

bah that's just hiphop's opinion, and is no way representative of the whole Euro left...

i have no clue where hiphop is from, but race and national/cultural identity is a big thing in Europe (for instance, as a "migrant" i've seen first hand how hard it is to integrate into another European country, despite living and working and paying my taxes here, and, because i am not French, i am not eligible to vote in the presidential elections, which is annoying, even though France is part of the EU and i am an EU national)

although i would say that was more of a "structural" issue rather than a "left/right" issue, just down to the fact that Europe is made up of different countries, not really "states" as they like to call it... just guessing though, but that's all i can think of off the top of my head...

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

Yeah man obama is just the worst. what happened to hope and change i mean wasn't that your plan liberals. Wave a magic wand and make big bad Bush go away. Well it didnt happen and now look wear we are. maybe if youd all wized up and voted for mitt romney who hey look at that actually has business experience we could have jobs. lower taxes. Better prices on gas. Defense. Morality. who knows cause you blew the chance and now America is going to continue to crumble. And all this gun talk i mean come on. Your letting this country go to ruin because your too dumb to see what's goin on.

A piece of your soul must have died in writing this, what with the missing apostrophes, spelling errors and "your" instead of "you're".

I know I couldn't do it. I tip my hat to you, sir.

[BEAL]

Originally Posted by mama cass

anyway, back on the surveillance issue... the conspiracy theorists weren't wrong were they...

You throw enough shit against a wall, and something is bound to stick. Not really going out on a limb to assume governments aren't spying on its people.

The flip side of it, those same people who are screaming about their liberties and freedoms being taken away, would also be screaming and yelling about why the Government didn't do all it could to protect us from a terrorist attack had it been stopped by surveillance.

It's a double edged sword and a fine line to walk to protect ourselves without completely destroying our privacy

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by BEAL

You throw enough shit against a wall, and something is bound to stick. Not really going out on a limb to assume governments aren't spying on its people.

The flip side of it, those same people who are screaming about their liberties and freedoms being taken away, would also be screaming and yelling about why the Government didn't do all it could to protect us from a terrorist attack had it been stopped by surveillance.

It's a double edged sword and a fine line to walk to protect ourselves without completely destroying our privacy

thing is, everybody knows surveillance has been going on for years really, and i find it hard to believe that potential terrorists would be putting it all out there, communicating by mobile phones/internet (unless it's seriously encrypted unbreakable code), because everything is so traceable... so i don't think governments instilling fear by claiming it's for our own protection is a good enough excuse...

and if they're THAT good at it, how come the US have no clue where Snowden is now?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by mama cass

and i find it hard to believe that potential terrorists would be putting it all out there, communicating by mobile phones/internet, because everything is so traceable...

I don't understand this line of thinking. Those involved would have to do some communication over mobile phones/ internet, other forms would just be too costly and time consuming. Travel is slowly but surely becoming pretty difficult for them so they really have very few choices.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by mama cass

thing is, everybody knows surveillance has been going on for years really, and i find it hard to believe that potential terrorists would be putting it all out there, communicating by mobile phones/internet (unless it's seriously encrypted unbreakable code), because everything is so traceable... so i don't think governments instilling fear by claiming it's for our own protection is a good enough excuse...

and if they're THAT good at it, how come the US have no clue where Snowden is now?

It's been reported before that terrorists have used cell phones to communicate, albeit the pay-as-you-go type. I would also think they might be using codes and aren't so obvious in their communication.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by BVS

I don't understand this line of thinking. Those involved would have to do some communication over mobile phones/ internet, other forms would just be too costly and time consuming. Travel is slowly but surely becoming pretty difficult for them so they really have very few choices.

i did edit my post a while back to say "unless it's seriously encrypted unbreakable code"...

i honestly don't know - they managed in the days before mobile phones/internet didn't they - terrorism is not a new thing... just saying, they might not be 100% reliant on internet/mobile technology, or might have some super genius code writers on the job, that's all...

also, with these latest revelations, the US has been spying on their own allies - it's hardly limited to tracking terrorists, that's why i think it's a whitewash or at least definitely not the full story!

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Pearl

It's been reported before that terrorists have used cell phones to communicate, albeit the pay-as-you-go type. I would also think they might be using codes and aren't so obvious in their communication.

[Pearl]

Snowden has admitted to being an independent contractor who deliberately aimed to work for the NSA with the intent to get information on US security. He even says he has more information that he will give to journalists in different countries:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/24/e...ok-booz-allen/

Do I smell a spy? He complains about the US government violating our freedoms yet seeks support from dictators.

And he's still in Russia, supposedly in transit at a Moscow airport. Russia does not know where he is going and is not involved, so says the ever reliable Putin.

All I can think right now is, shit!

[mama cass]

it's interesting to see how the US are labelling him a spy now he's no longer playing their game...

media here are describing him as a "whistleblower"

[BVS]

Originally Posted by mama cass

i did edit my post a while back to say "unless it's seriously encrypted unbreakable code"...

i honestly don't know - they managed in the days before mobile phones/internet didn't they - terrorism is not a new thing... just saying, they might not be 100% reliant on internet/mobile technology, or might have some super genius code writers on the job, that's all...

also, with these latest revelations, the US has been spying on their own allies - it's hardly limited to tracking terrorists, that's why i think it's a whitewash or at least definitely not the full story!

Most pre-mobile communication was written and travel, travel has been slowed down and written isn't really going to be reliable in an ever changing world.

I doubt the terrorist have that much of an upper hand when it comes to encryption.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think we can completely dismiss the uses when it comes to thwarting security threats.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by mama cass

it's interesting to see how the US are labelling him a spy now he's no longer playing their game...

media here are describing him as a "whistleblower"

No one is calling him a spy yet. That's me suggesting he might be one.

And he could be - based on where he is now, what he wants to do with his information, and why he worked at NSA in the first place. I was on the fence about him, but now Snowden's motives seem very suspicious. Especially if he's still in Russia, a place still fuming over losing the Cold War to us.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by BVS

Most pre-mobile communication was written and travel, travel has been slowed down and written isn't really going to be reliable in an ever changing world.

I doubt the terrorist have that much of an upper hand when it comes to encryption.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think we can completely dismiss the uses when it comes to thwarting security threats.

BVS, i was thinking more along the lines of "carrier pigeon"

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Pearl

No one is calling him a spy yet. That's me suggesting he might be one.

And he could be - based on where he is now, what he wants to do with his information, and why he worked at NSA in the first place. I was on the fence about him, but now Snowden's motives seem very suspicious. Especially if he's still in Russia, a place still fuming over losing the Cold War to us.

no, i wasn't referring to your comment necessarily but the fact that the US have logged espionage charges against him, which infers spying...

as far as i understand it, according to his film, he claims he felt "morally challenged" with his work in surveillance, and felt he had to expose it as he felt the US was overstepping the mark... i guess if he was a spy, he wouldn't have gone public, but stayed covert and sold the information secretly or something, i dunno...

[Pearl]

Maybe he was paid by someone, or he really believes in what he did. Just seems odd that he will complain about the US government violating citizens' security yet is spending time in Russia, which doesn't have much freedom for it's citizens either. I just highly doubt Putin is telling the truth by saying he's not working with him. C'mon, it's Putin!

[mama cass]

the funny thing is they're all at it really - wasn't there a Russian spy ring exposed in the US a few years ago - they were all deported back to Russia i think... i can't remember the girl's name - i just remember the media posting loads of her facebook photos

eta: i think the worst thing is the US govt hypocrisy element really... that seems to be what the ROW is up in arms about...