MERGED--> all Gun Control discussion

[BVS]

Any gun can be used to kill, so why single out assault rifles? They look scary, despite statistics showing they're rarely used to kill? Your logic if poor. Any and all firearms should be covered by the 2nd Amendment.

Stop with the "they look scary" tag line, that may work on someone who doesn't know anything about guns, but I know exactly what defines an assault rifle and see no practical use for any law abiding citizen.

Controlling guns is about trying to minimize as many deaths as possible. This is how society works. Safety standards on cars do not evolve to stop all deaths, but to try and minimize the amount of deaths.

Any firearm should be covered by the 2nd amendment? So you want fully automatic M-16s and Bazookas in the arms of civilians? And I have poor logic?

 

[HyperU2]

Full autos are legal. You didn't know that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6yyQ_328mA

Actually quite a few people shoot cannons for fun too. They're not used in crimes either. Black Powder Cannons



Quit hiding behind the "assault" rifle fallacy and man up and admit that you want all guns banned.

 

[BVS]

Quit hiding behind the "assault" rifle fallacy and man up and admit that you want all guns banned.

Wow, is this how you "debate" you can't answer the question so you fabricate the opposition's stance?

This is ridiculous.

 

[HyperU2]

I did answer your question. All firearms are covered by the 2nd Amendment.

 

[BVS]

Well I was talking about the original question which was what purpose does an Ak-47 or any other assault rifle in a law abiding citizens hands?

All I got was "shit and giggles".

They should have put that in the constitution.

 

[HyperU2]

Does enjoyment sound better? Words are like weapons I guess. No matter how I phrase fun, that's what I mean.

 

[BVS]

Johnny can buy a weapon that can take out 50 people just because it's fun, but two women who love each other can't marry, what a fucked up country we live in...

 

[HyperU2]

Yeah what a terrible plight we in the US have.

 

[BVS]

Oh, that's right we live in paradise. We are the city on the hill, the one that all envy and want to become, we can do no wrong... our priorities should never be questioned.

I keep forgetting about that American Exceptionalism clause.

 

[U2isthebest]

I keep forgetting about that American Exceptionalism clause.

It works for nuclear proliferation. Who are we to assume it didn't include guns too?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Gun control represents trading liberty for security, it may be justified but that's what it is, the right to own a gun is more free than not, ideally we could have lesbian sports shooters.

 

[BVS]

It's too bad those background checks don't measure intelligence or parenting skills.

3-year-old boy fatally shot as parents prepare for Easter egg hunt | WOAI.COM: San Antonio News




No respect for the gun.

 

[HyperU2]

Some should be tested just to breed, let alone have a gun around kids.

 

[VintagePunk]

I watched 20-20 the other night, and the entire show was about guns and gun control in the US. While I realize that they tend to sensationalize things somewhat, if only a fraction of what they reported is true, it's damn frightening.

The most interesting thing to me was this scenario they set up using college aged students. Each of the 6 of them had varying experience with guns and shooting, ranging from none to considerable. In the scenario, they had each of them attend a lecture having to do with guns, while they were each supposedly "armed," their weapons in holsters at their sides, and while they thought they were loaded, they were only loaded with a paintball sort of thing. During the lecture, they had an armed shooter bust into the room and begin aiming his weapon and shooting. Of the six of them, even those with gun experience, several of them couldn't even get their guns out of their holsters. Others shot or nearly shot other innocent lecture attendees (actually, they were law enforcement workers posing as students). Only one of the 6 managed to get a shot off at the shooter, and that was only a glancing shot off his leg that would have been a flesh wound at best.

The moral of the story, obviously, is that in a crisis situation, guns aren't of much help to ordinary citizens, even those with considerable shooting range experience, and, they can actually do a great deal of harm by shooting innocent bystanders. They spoke to many police officers who confirmed this, and they said that they need regular training on a regular basis in order to keep their shooting skills up to par, and to retain muscle memory for quick movement in a crisis situation. It was really interesting, and kind of disturbing at the same time.

The episode can be seen here, if anyone's interested: http://abcnews.go.com/2020

 

[HyperU2]

I watched 20-20 the other night, and the entire show was about guns and gun control in the US. While I realize that they tend to sensationalize things somewhat, if only a fraction of what they reported is true, it's damn frightening.

The most interesting thing to me was this scenario they set up using college aged students. Each of the 6 of them had varying experience with guns and shooting, ranging from none to considerable. In the scenario, they had each of them attend a lecture having to do with guns, while they were each supposedly "armed," their weapons in holsters at their sides, and while they thought they were loaded, they were only loaded with a paintball sort of thing. During the lecture, they had an armed shooter bust into the room and begin aiming his weapon and shooting. Of the six of them, even those with gun experience, several of them couldn't even get their guns out of their holsters. Others shot or nearly shot other innocent lecture attendees (actually, they were law enforcement workers posing as students). Only one of the 6 managed to get a shot off at the shooter, and that was only a glancing shot off his arm that would have been a flesh wound at best.

The moral of the story, obviously, is that in a crisis situation, guns aren't of much help to ordinary citizens, even those with considerable shooting range experience, and, they can actually do a great deal of harm by shooting innocent bystanders. They spoke to many police officers who confirmed this, and they said that they need regular training on a regular basis in order to keep their shooting skills up to par, and to retain muscle memory for quick movement in a crisis situation. It was really interesting, and kind of disturbing at the same time.

The episode can be seen here, if anyone's interested: Watch '20/20' Friday Nights at 10 p.m. - ABC News

They put an untrained college kid in a classroom and sent in a firearms instructor who knew where the kid was seated. Somewhat obvious outcome if you ask me. They ignore that most mass shooters are untrained as well, and surprise is on the armed victims side.

 

[VintagePunk]

They put an untrained college kid in a classroom and sent in a firearms instructor who knew where the kid was seated. Somewhat obvious outcome if you ask me. They ignore that most mass shooters are untrained as well, and surprise is on the armed victims side.

Untrained kid? As I said, some of them had a great deal of shooting range experience. If I remember correctly, one of them with the most experience was one of the ones who couldn't even unholster their weapon.

And, the point of it wasn't for the shooter to shoot the kid first - the point was to show what would happen if an armed person began shooting in a public place where an ordinary citizen was armed, to show how effective that ordinary citizen would be. The result was very telling.

 

[HyperU2]

Shooting ranges aren't the same as the training in combat situations that their adversaries had. Put those kids up against each other instead of an instructor and it'd be a fair test.

 

[VintagePunk]

Shooting ranges aren't the same as the training in combat situations that their adversaries had. Put those kids up against each other instead of an instructor and it'd be a fair test.

Did you even see it? I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse, here. Like I said, that's not the point. It doesn't matter how much experience the shooter has. Even an untrained shooter going into a lecture hall has the element of surprise on his side. The point was, once panic breaks out, how do ordinary people, both with and without gun training, react? Again, they were completely useless in that situation, and in some cases, they would have done harm to innocent people.

 

[HyperU2]

That show made it looks like your best bet is to be unarmed and sit there and get shot. No thanks. It matters greatly if you're going against someone else who has the same amount of training.

I doubt this fellow trained every day.

http://www.wjbf.com/jbf/news/crime/article/nj_man_killed_at_sc_alcoholics_anonymous_center/12598/

 

[indra]

Shooting ranges aren't the same as the training in combat situations that their adversaries had. Put those kids up against each other instead of an instructor and it'd be a fair test.

In a real life situation they wouldn't be up "against each other" either. They would be against someone who was willing (eager, even) to kill anyone and also most likely willing (eager, even) to die. I bet in the vast majority of cases there would be more carnage, not less.

 

[HyperU2]

In a real life situation they wouldn't be up "against each other" either. They would be against someone who was willing (eager, even) to kill anyone and also most likely willing (eager, even) to die. I bet in the vast majority of cases there would be more carnage, not less.

The fact is they wouldn't be up against someone else that trains for hours every week. You can bet all you'd like. Spree shootings are rare anyway so it's stupid to pretend like they're a huge problem. I'd say less than 1% of gun deaths yearly.

 

[indra]

That show made it looks like your best bet is to be unarmed and sit there and get shot. No thanks.

You'd probably be more apt to live if there was only one person shooting, even if that one person was trying to kill as many as possible, than you would be if one person burst in shooting and ten people all around the room drew their guns and started shooting.

You think you'd be able to control the situation. But you wouldn't be able to -- it would be havoc.

 

[HyperU2]

I'd rather have the chance.

 

[VintagePunk]

That show made it looks like your best bet is to be unarmed and sit there and get shot. No thanks. It matters greatly if you're going against someone else who has the same amount of training.

I doubt this fellow trained every day.

NJ Man Killed At SC Alcoholics Anonymous Center | WJBF

It wasn't a one-on-one situation. It was a shooter who entered the room and started shooting randomly, that's it. The individuals in question didn't have time to stop and assess the shooter's skill level, so his skill level didn't matter. What mattered were the reactions of the individuals selected, and in the chaos and panic, none of them reacted well. Good lord.

 

[HyperU2]

This is why I hate arguing gun politics with people that have no clue about firearms. You'll never get the point so go suck on the media.

 

[indra]

I'd rather have the chance.

I would too. That's why I would much, much rather not have people -- even otherwise normal people -- having guns in public places. I'd have a much better chance of getting out alive if there aren't a whole bunch of wannabe heroes playing gunfighter.

If you and I are both in that same room when a gunman bursts in and I get killed by you when you are trying to be a hero, I'm gonna be mighty damned pissed. And I will haunt your ass forever. Plus, I hope my relatives will sue the living shit out of you.

(and my brother is also a gun freak so I've heard all your arguments ad nauseam)

 

[HyperU2]

I would too. That's why I would much, much rather not have people -- even otherwise normal people -- having guns in public places. I'd have a much better chance of getting out alive if there aren't a whole bunch of wannabe heros playing gunfighter.

If you and I are both in that same room when a gunman bursts in and I get killed by you when you are trying to be a hero, I'm gonna be mighty damned pissed. And I will haunt your ass forever. Plus, I hope my relatives will sue the living shit out of you.

I'd take a bullet for you long before I'd put one in you.

 

[BVS]

Shooting ranges aren't the same as the training in combat situations that their adversaries had. Put those kids up against each other instead of an instructor and it'd be a fair test.

That show made it looks like your best bet is to be unarmed and sit there and get shot. No thanks. It matters greatly if you're going against someone else who has the same amount of training.

I doubt this fellow trained every day.

NJ Man Killed At SC Alcoholics Anonymous Center | WJBF

Wow, you completely missed the point, and then you react with this:

This is why I hate arguing gun politics with people that have no clue about firearms. You'll never get the point so go suck on the media.

 

[VintagePunk]

This is why I hate arguing gun politics with people that have no clue about firearms. You'll never get the point so go suck on the media.

This is why I hate arguing gun politics with people who have no idea about the psychological processes that the human mind and body go through during crisis situations.

I lived with an avid hunter and marksman for 10 years, and there used to be a shitload of guns in this house. I'm glad to be rid of both him and them.

 

[HyperU2]

If I'm ever involved in a mass shooting and I'm armed, I'm just getting behind the Liberals.