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Old 07-17-2012, 04:19 AM   #21
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But now, we are beset on all sides by propaganda promoting a radically different viewpoint. According to this idea, humans are a cancer upon the Earth, a horde of vermin whose unconstrained aspirations and appetites are endangering the natural order. This is the core idea of antihumanism.
sounds a bit like a 8 year old who was not allowed a third serving of chips, calling his parents tyrannical monsters
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:35 AM   #22
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It's a strange viewpoint. Let's all kill ourselves at 5pm Thursday, let's exterminate our entire species, to save the earth!
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:18 AM   #23
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It's a strange viewpoint. Let's all kill ourselves at 5pm Thursday, let's exterminate our entire species, to save the earth!

i don't think anyone who believes that we should drive less in more fuel efficient cars, wash our clothes in cold water, and eat less meat is somehow engaging in a suicide pact because they hate human beings.

but i suppose one has to think that way if one is a child and doesn't want to be told that, well, yes, there probably are some lifestyle modifications that one could make that would reduce the harm we do to the environment.

it's all or nothing, for some. it's like, "i think we should grow our own vegetables," and the response is, "oh YEAH? i bet you want me to abort all my babies as well! FASCIST!"

so let them read their books and raise their blood pressure and feel under siege and oppressed by electrical cars and carbon offsets and public transportation. the rest of us will continue to swelter through this summer on a planet that's probably already past the tipping point.

besides, humans will naturally lower their own birthrates themselves. the more educated a woman becomes, the fewer children she has. and this can happen in a generation. just look at Mexico.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:48 AM   #24
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our greatest thinkers developed a concept of civilization dedicated to human betterment and “unalienable rights” among which are “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness,” proudly asserting that “to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men.”
Typically American view. That the "greatest thinkers" are the founding fathers who put together a perfect constitutional document. In fact, there are different views on constitutional documents with different emphasis than the US constitution - not necessarily better or worse, just different.

I won't bore you, but there is lots written about precisely the focus on "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as the underlying theme of the document versus the type of language that you see in other constitutions.
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:41 AM   #25
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But now, we are beset on all sides by propaganda promoting a radically different viewpoint. According to this idea, humans are a cancer upon the Earth, a horde of vermin whose unconstrained aspirations and appetites are endangering the natural order. This is the core idea of antihumanism.

~Robert Zubrin
What a lazy argument(he has a lot in his book along with bad fact checking).

Why is it that people feel the need to argue a minority extreme view with another extreme view? Is this all you're capable of? Are there people who see humans as a cancer to the earth? Sure, maybe a few. But then why argue it with an equally extreme view that arrogantly denies that humanity can have an effect on the planet?
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #26
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it's not even arguing with an extreme view, it's fabricating one wholesale.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:29 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Irvine511

i don't think anyone who believes that we should drive less in more fuel efficient cars, wash our clothes in cold water, and eat less meat is somehow engaging in a suicide pact because they hate human beings.

but i suppose one has to think that way if one is a child and doesn't want to be told that, well, yes, there probably are some lifestyle modifications that one could make that would reduce the harm we do to the environment.

it's all or nothing, for some. it's like, "i think we should grow our own vegetables," and the response is, "oh YEAH? i bet you want me to abort all my babies as well! FASCIST!"

so let them read their books and raise their blood pressure and feel under siege and oppressed by electrical cars and carbon offsets and public transportation. the rest of us will continue to swelter through this summer on a planet that's probably already past the tipping point.

besides, humans will naturally lower their own birthrates themselves. the more educated a woman becomes, the fewer children she has. and this can happen in a generation. just look at Mexico.
So what I'm getting from all of this is you're happy there are fewer Mexicans in the world?
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:34 PM   #28
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So what I'm getting from all of this is you're happy there are fewer Mexicans in the world?


well, mixed feelings. i certainly don't want any of those resorts along the Riviera Maya to be short staffed.
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:44 PM   #29
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I think it makes good sense to care for the environment, but mainly for our own benefit. The earth will be fine regardless of what happens. Species being wiped out, climate changing--that's always been a part of this planet's history with and without human help, and the Earth will solider on. The question is whether we will be a part of that soldiering on, whether the kind of world we are destroying and polluting is the kind we want-or will be able-- to live in (and that we want for our children). If we don't change our ways we will certainly destroy the world as we know it, but then the world hasn't always been as we've known it.
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:59 PM   #30
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Agreed, Sean.

I have no idea what the future will bring for our society or for the earth at large. I just know I want a nice, clean earth to live on. I didn't realize this was too drastic a thing to ask for.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:23 PM   #31
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The earth will be fine regardless of what happens. Species being wiped out, climate changing--that's always been a part of this planet's history with and without human help, and the Earth will solider on.
Right, but do you not feel remorse for being part of eradicating a species or Eco system from the planet, never to be seen again? Sure, it happens regardless, but not in such large numbers (save for a catastrophic event) and I'd prefer to contribute as little as possible
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:35 PM   #32
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Right, but do you not feel remorse for being part of eradicating a species or Eco system from the planet, never to be seen again? Sure, it happens regardless, but not in such large numbers (save for a catastrophic event) and I'd prefer to contribute as little as possible
Of course. The whole idea of leaving a place like you found it just makes sense to me on a very basic level, especially when it's a place of beauty and wonder.

There are many reasons to care for the earth, preserve the environment etc, but I think one of the biggest ones is for our own sake. When we "destroy" the earth, what we are really destroying above all is our own ability to live in it as we have in the long term. To me that argument is absolutely humanistic when we are talking about environmentalism, and as such I find it absurd that folks would argue that environmentalism is "anti-human."
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:36 PM   #33
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:37 PM   #34
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Of course, if you're a conservative Christian like me, I suppose you could beg off on the coming apocalypse and say it doesn't matter anyway.

But that would involve ignoring a little nugget in Revelation about God's view on those who destroy the earth (it's not a positive one, let's just say.)

Not that such a rationale for caring for the environment would mean much to you.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:38 PM   #35
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Hehehe
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:04 PM   #36
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the rest of us will continue to swelter through this summer on a planet that's probably already past the tipping point
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. —Jude 1:7
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:09 PM   #37
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Mmmmmm strange flesh
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:13 PM   #38
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I won't bore you, but there is lots written about precisely the focus on "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as the underlying theme of the document versus the type of language that you see in other constitutions.
Our constitution lays out unalienable and negative rights, newer constitutions, positive rights.

The Founders, and traditionally the majority of Americans, have understood that for government to provide a "right" to one group they must indenture another. Furthermore, that "a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:19 PM   #39
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Our constitution lays out unalienable and negative rights, newer constitutions, positive rights.
Not just that, but historically the US is unique in having a cohesive, single constitutional document - you see that now with very new constitutions in emerging nations but not historically. For example, the UK has no Constitution - they have constitutional documents, but it makes for a difficult comparison.

Anyway, it's a really interesting are of law and policy.
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:25 PM   #40
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The UK has no written Constitution.
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