Mass Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

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Apparently the universe is America and its obsession with guns.

Nothing we can do except buy more guns
 
I live in Vermont, which despite being one of the most liberal state in the country (we have as far as I know the only self-proclaimed socialist senator), we ironically have the most lax gun laws.

We don't have waiting periods.

You are allowed to carry any sort of firearm, be it a handgun or assault rifle, either concealed or openly, without a permit. There's no such thing as a concealed carry or open carry permit here. The only restriction is that you can't bring a firearm onto school, state, or federal property. Only two other states allow that, I can't think of which ones though.

You don't have to register your firearms.

You only have to be 16 to possess or carry a firearm, and if you're under 16 you only need parental consent.

Sounds crazy right? Yet we have virtually no violent crime.

I think the fed's should stay out of gun control laws and leave it up to the states to regulate. That's just my two cents and I'm sure most here will disagree, but I'd like to see someone explain to me how Vermont has less regulations than Texas results in an extremely small amount of violent crime.

Maybe it's because were all hippies and just love each other so much.

http://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/vermont-gun-laws

The state of Vermont is one of many to employ very few firearm laws or restrictions. Vermont can arguably be considered as the state with the least amount of firearm laws. Even though the state may share similar legislature with other notably less restrictive states, such as no permits to purchase, or the requiring of registration of guns and their owners, the most notable law--or lack thereof--is the fact that under Vermont firearm laws, it not necessary to have a permit to conceal and carry a weapon.

It is an aspect of law that the state of Texas is currently pursuing and attempting to push into the state's legislature as well. It is possible that the most stringent code of firearms law in the state pertains to the fact that all dealers are required to keep records of all sales of new and used handguns.

The records must include the weapon's make, name, and model, as well as the caliber and manufacturer's serial number. The purchaser's information is also included on the record, which includes name, address, occupation, age, height, weight, and even hair and eye color. The records must be kept on file and on location for at least six years and made available to the proper authorities if ever requested.

Possession of a firearm is not contingent to obtaining permits or licenses either. No one under the age of 16 may be in possession of a firearm unless the minor has the permission of a parent or legal guardian. One of the few restrictions imposed by Vermont firearm laws is that no one can be in possession of a zip gun. A zip gun is defined as a homemade firearm or weapon.

These homemade weapons can often be disguised as other objects or hidden within them. Zip guns may commonly be disguised as pens, flashlights, or cell phones. Generally speaking, zip guns are prohibited and considered illegal in the United States. It is interesting that Vermont decided to enact this law in to writing, perhaps because of the fact that open carry and conceal and carry is available in the state with out a permit.

Because there are no restrictions as to what kind of weapon may be carried, the possibility of carrying a zip gun could be considered possible if it was not enacted as illegal by firearm law of Vermont. However, other dangerous firearms such as machine guns or automatic weapons do not have any regulations imposed. The purchase, possession, and selling of machine guns is allowed by Vermont law, as long as the weapon is registered and complies with federal laws.

As mentioned, the carrying of a firearm--open or concealed--is legal in Vermont. The only imposed restrictions upon the carrying of firearms is that an individual may not carry or possess a firearm on school grounds. The only exception to this law is if a firearms is on the grounds for the purpose of education and safety. This also includes court houses as well.

The other provision put in to law is that a loaded shotgun or rifle may not be carried in a vehicle on a public highway. Exempt from this law are law enforcement officers and hunters who may have a physical disability and provided with permit by the fish and game commissioner allowing them to do so.
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The_Pac_Mule said:
I think the fed's should stay out of gun control laws and leave it up to the states to regulate. That's just my two cents and I'm sure most here will disagree, but I'd like to see someone explain to me how Vermont having less regulations than Texas results in an extremely small amount of violent crime.
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A wealthy, highly-educated citizenry and no large urban areas? Stick Houston into Vermont, and I think your crime statistics might change a bit.
 
A wealthy, highly-educated citizenry and no large urban areas? Stick Houston into Vermont, and I think your crime statistics might change a bit.
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That's my point, states should make their own laws as they seem fit.
 
I think it was a gun like this

90298_XM-15_16M4.jpg


that killed the women and children, it weighs about as much as a laptop, 5.5 pounds
 
The_Pac_Mule said:
That's my point, states should make their own laws as they seem fit.
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It may be more appropriate to have loose gun laws in New England than it is in California and Texas. But if the argument that stricter gun laws, ceteris paribus, lead to less crime is valid, then that creates an enormous problem in, say, my state, since we have both cities like Houston and Dallas and a governor who has no problem with school teachers being armed.
 
I know this is going to be very controversial here, but I honestly believe someone at every school should have access to some sort of firearm, be it on them or locked up somewhere in the school.

In highschool we had a local police officer who worked at our school. He always had a loaded glock on him. And I felt very safe at school, even during those years which saw a string of shootings, like the Amish School shooting and the VA Tech Massacre. The fact that there was a man with a gun at our school didn't bother me at all. Or anyone else.
 
Caleb8844 said:
This is certainly a tragedy. But, as has been noted, the shooter acquired the weapon from his mother. What new law could have prevented this?
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but isn't this precisely the problem? she owned several weapons *and* a semi-automatic that were all purchased legally. and these legal weapons -- NOT bought on a black market -- were used to murder children. it's what's legal that is the problem. do you think this woman would have been in possession of the .223 if it hadn't been legal?

and apparently, the mother was a gun nut herself. from New Hampshire. ;)



The_Pac_Mule said:
I live in Vermont, which despite being one of the most liberal state in the country (we have as far as I know the only self-proclaimed socialist senator), we ironically have the most lax gun laws.


Maybe it's because were all hippies and just love each other so much.

Vermont Gun Laws | Gun
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actually, you're more right than you know. Vermont is a great place. Vermont's liberalism has given it top notch health care, and it's a fairly unique state in that comparing Vermont to Texas (or even Chicago) is like comparing New Zealand to India. i agree that states should have freedom to regulate based upon their needs, however can we at least agree that no one in rural Montana or urban Oakland can make a case as to why a .223 or AR-15 is a civil right and utterly essential to self-defense?




The_Pac_Mule said:
I know this is going to be very controversial here, but I honestly believe someone at every school should have access to some sort of firearm, be it on them or locked up somewhere in the school.
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i've actually thought about this and i don't think it's preposterous, at least on the face of it. yes, if that principal had a gun, maybe she could have taken him out.

but the reality is that the presence of a gun in any environment dramatically increases the chance of that gun being used to kill someone. and it's very unlikely that we'll all become the movie action heroes we seem to think we'll be in a situation like this.

Sep. 30, 2009 — In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun.

[...]

What Penn researchers found was alarming – almost five Philadelphians were shot every day over the course of the study and about 1 of these 5 people died. The research team concluded that, although successful defensive gun uses are possible and do occur each year, the chances of success are low. People should rethink their possession of guns or, at least, understand that regular possession necessitates careful safety countermeasures, write the authors. Suggestions to the contrary, especially for urban residents who may see gun possession as a defense against a dangerous environment should be discussed and thoughtfully reconsidered.

Protection Or Peril? Gun Possession Of Questionable Value In An Assault, Study Finds
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i know very little about guns. i did not grow up near guns. however, i have traveled extensively throughout the US and i have encountered what might be known as "gun culture" -- people for whom hunting is part of their lives. these people are all serious, smart, responsible gun owners who have great respect for their firearms.

but that to me seems completely and utterly distinct from the weapons used in the massacres this year.
 
What good is a Glock if someone decides to shoot up a school with a semi-automatic rifle?
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A lot of good as long as you know how to use it, which he certainly did. In a close-quarters environment like a school, an assault rifle doesn't have any edge over a good handgun, other than clip size. I would actually rather have a handgun as its more maneuverable and I could move and fire quicker. I don't think we've had any school shooter that had any sort of professional training in firearms. Not being arrogant, but myself or any former military or law enforcement would have more than likely taken this clown out very swiftly with nothing more than a pistol.
 
BoMac said:
Sometimes, like on Friday, I wish I could withdraw from the human race. So very disturbing. Idiots.

"Take That ****** Off The TV, We Wanna Watch Football!": Idiots Respond To NBC Pre-Empting Sunday Night Football
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Oh, the same delightful folks who sent out their eloquent tweets after the election was called, I'm guessing.
 
I don't want to live in a world where SCHOOLS are armed. Fucking SCHOOLS.

Especially because, y'know, your average principal is not exactly trained to identify targets and neutralise them under extreme stress and pressure. That's the preserve of specially trained law enforcement and military members. Seems to me your average school shooting tragedy would just be made worse, not better, if it turned into a shoot-out.
 
I'm watching the local news. The top story? My friend speaking at a vigil, talking about his dead cousin. The second story? People in this state sprinting to gun stores to stock up.

This country is entirely too fucked up.
 
solemole said:
I want to apologize to mysteriousjen and everyone else here who may have Asperger and/or knows someone else who does.

Say, an everyday stranger who lives in the city as you, probably couldn't tell if someone had Aspergers, bipolar, or whathaveyou... they'll probably just pick up there's something strange about that person, and think nothing more of it.

But I think the idea of stigmatizing people/persons is a general human fallacy. Asperger can get stigmatized, but so can "mental illness." I mean, what do people mean by "mental illness"? People suffering from depression, bipolar, anxiety, phobias, or schizophrenia? Lump them all into the same category?
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Thanks for the apology, i just dont want to see a whole community of kids and families demonised when we are grieving for the loss of these innocent kids as much as anyone.
 
As I've explained before, in Israel we have armed security guards and bagage checks outside all public buildings: banks, cinemas, shopping malls most office buildings and schools. We also have bagage checks at every entrance. This is for protection and deterence.

This morning there was a shooting outside a building in Bnei-Brak which could have ended a lot differently if there was no guard outside.

Bnei Brak security guard shot; suspect nabbed - Israel News, Ynetnews

If some people are so determined to hold on to their weapons then at least put armed guards outside buildings to make it lot harder for the maniacs to gain access to the areas they want to target. This will help save lives.

A very good day to all of you and please stay safe.

:hug:
 
Arming teachers will only serve to increase the number of scenarios where a large scale massacre can be exasperated. Hypothetical scenario 1: a group of several people rampage through a school with knives. A teacher attempts to shoot the assailants. The teacher manages to take out one, but the others are able to restrain him/her. The assailants now have a gun in their possession. Hypothetical scenario 2: a group of high-school students intent on carrying out a mass-murder and knowing there is a gun on the school premises, take a hostage (a pupil or member of staff) and threaten to kill them unless they are given the gun. Basically what I'm suggesting is that the knowledge there ARE guns within school, will encourage behaviour to obtain those firearms by disturbed individuals who do not have firearms to begin with. It's a stupid ass idea.
 
Caleb8844 said:
This is certainly a tragedy. But, as has been noted, the shooter acquired the weapon from his mother. What new law could have prevented this?
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Here's one:

Owners of guns must have a gun safe, subject to periodic police inspection, that guns are kept locked in at all times. If an inspection reveals that the safe is not up to spec, or if a weapon used in a crime is traced to a safe that was not locked, the owner of the gun will be subject to a hefty fine, repossession of any other weapons and their gun license will be revoked for at least 5 years.

Another one, since apparently Adam Lanza bought plenty of ammo online: heavily tax bullets for civilian purchase. Boxes capped at 12 rounds, $100 a box (minimum), limit one box per purchase, and in order to purchase more bullets you have to bring in your spent casings. No one needs hundreds of bullets at once. Want to target practice? Go to a range and shoot all you want. Going hunting? If you can't bag a deer with one clip, you need more training.

That's a start.
 
I grew up about 20 miles away in a small New England town much like Newtown - this is absolutely unbelievable. I happened to be here in CT for the past week and the last few days are much like a nightmare - my prayers go out to everyone. I have an employee whose sister is in an adjoining town's Volunteer Ambulance squad and she said the carnage was beyond describable.
 
I have to be honest, all these suggestions that the principal/teachers should have been armed sound completely insane to me.

First of all, it is completely divorced from what actually happened in that school. The principal, along with the assistant principal and school psychologist I believe were in a meeting when the gunman arrived and blew his way through the front doors with the assault rifle. The three women ran into the hallway to see what the commotion was and were immediately mowed down by said weapon. Where in this scenario do you see the principal having a properly stored and locked Glock or M4 or whatever your weapon of choice would have been useful? Nowhere. She'd have been dead long before she got to her office to even retrieve it. Unless you want the woman to be packing 24/7, in which case you'd be hoping that she would have had the presence of mind to run into the hall, gun blazing and accurately shoot the assailant who was, by the way, wearing a bulletproof vest. And that she'd be faster at doing that than he would be at discharging his semi-automatic assault rifle. Hello? What alternate reality is this? Is she Rambo?

With respect to teachers being armed, my observations are as follows:

1. As if people would feel more secure with their children being in the crossfire? So we have a deranged gunman shooting with an assault rifle from the door of the classroom, and the teacher apparently has a) the presence of mind and b) the time to grab her properly stored and LOCKED weapon, and then start shooting from the front of the class over the kids at the gunman who is most likely in a bulletproof vest? Because that would not at all cause extra casualties. We all had teachers who were practically blind old ladies - this is who you want to take your chances with?

2. It would be very helpful for the criminal element to know that if they want easy access to a stash of guns, breaking into an elementary school on the weekend and raiding the principal's office and classrooms for guns is the way to go.

3. Any lunatic who is intent on killing people could easily enter the school unarmed knowing he has access to arms inside.

4. No teacher and no principal WOULD EVER SNAP due to their own mental instability, domestic abuse at home, being fired from the job, etc, etc and then use one of the guns easily at their disposal.

5. There would never be an accidental discharge or curious/clever kids finding the bullets and the gun.

I honestly have to say that the mind boggles. Especially when we have an example of the mother in this case, an experienced markswoman apparently armed to the teeth and she was the first one to die. But thank God she was armed and capable of self-defence with her Bushmaster.
 
anitram said:
I have to be honest, all these suggestions that the principal/teachers should have been armed sound completely insane to me.
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I find those suggestions about as logical as suggesting all schools should have their own nuclear missile plan as to deter potential violence.

I completely agree with your further assessment.
 
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