Mass Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

[cobl04]

Awareness and care for mental illnesses can always be better. I totally see where you're coming from Steved... but this is not a situation to go "fuck the mental illness". It provides an opportunity to talk more about it, what leads people down these horrible paths. I'm with you in that I've got no empathy for the guy whatsoever though. Personally mine disappears when you commit a crime like that.

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

Eta - guns don't help, either. Guns and crazy don't mix. And if the sane have to be deprived of or work a little harder to get legitimate guns, so be it, it's a minuscule price to pay.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

That's one of your major problems, right there. Other countries don't have that ease of access.



Again, another societal problem, the media shouldn't be putting kids on tv, but it's always a battle for who will be the first to report, who will get the higher ratings...

Well yeah it's the media. They shouldn't, but RATINGS!!!! They just had the teacher on that had her kids stand on a toilet then blocked the door with a filing cabinet.

You can argue that more gun control would have prevented it, then you can argue that if everyone was armed and trained this would have never happened. People are just afraid to admit that there are sick people among us. Some people hide it, some people snap and do stuff like this. I wonder what's going to come out about this guy in the next few weeks.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by cobl04

Awareness and care for mental illnesses can always be better. I totally see where you're coming from Steved... but this is not a situation to go "fuck the mental illness". It provides an opportunity to talk more about it, what leads people down these horrible paths. I'm with you in that I've got no empathy for the guy whatsoever though. Personally mine disappears when you commit a crime like that.

I'm not saying fuck the mental illness. I'm all for identifying these people and getting the help they need so that they could function in society productively. I'm also willing to admit that there are some people that fly under the radar that we'll never be able to identify. Those are the ones that do stuff like this. Those are the ones who will never get the help even if it is right there.

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by Steved1998

Well yeah it's the media. They shouldn't, but RATINGS!!!! They just had the teacher on that had her kids stand on a toilet then blocked the door with a filing cabinet.

You can argue that more gun control would have prevented it, then you can argue that if everyone was armed and trained this would have never happened. People are just afraid to admit that there are sick people among us. Some people hide it, some people snap and do stuff like this. I wonder what's going to come out about this guy in the next few weeks.

...and, if people didn't watch it (you included, from what you said), they wouldn't get the ratings.

I just think it's extremely short-sighted to discount the need for more and effective, and wider-reaching mental health services, when that is one of the two major causes of this sort of thing. What you brought up about adult snapping without warning and this sort of thing happening is unusual. There are almost always warning signs, if people are looking for them. The problem is, other people exhibit similar or the same signs, but never escalate to something like this. So it's true that there is no way of telling who will snap and who won't...it would just help a lot if people would look out for each other more.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

...and, if people didn't watch it (you included, from what you said), they wouldn't get the ratings.

I just think it's extremely short-sighted to discount the need for more and effective, and wider-reaching mental health services, when that is one of the two major causes of this sort of thing. What you brought up about adult snapping without warning and this sort of thing happening is unusual. There are almost always warning signs, if people are looking for them. The problem is, other people exhibit similar or the same signs, but never escalate to something like this. So it's true that there is no way of telling who will snap and who won't...it would just help a lot if people would look out for each other more.

How can people not watch it? We want to know what happened. We want to know why it happened. We want to know who it happened to, and what they did and how they reacted and so on. It's human curiosity.

People claim we live in an interconnected society, but really no one looks out for each other anymore. How many people in here really know their neighbors? Walking the halls in the high school I work at, kids have their heads in their cell phones texting or doing whatever they do in between classes. Hell, I'm guilty of it when I'm doing my food shopping, i always have my earbuds in. How can we look for signs among our neighbors when we isolate ourselves?

[Irvine511]

No one "makes a choice" to execute 5 year olds.

This is mental illness in a country where it's easier to access firearms than it is to get health care

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by Steved1998

How can people not watch it? We want to know what happened. We want to know why it happened. We want to know who it happened to, and what they did and how they reacted and so on. It's human curiosity.

People claim we live in an interconnected society, but really no one looks out for each other anymore. How many people in here, really know their neighbors? Walking the halls in the high school I work at, kids have their heads in their cell phones texting or doing whatever they do in between classes. Hell, I'm guilty of it when I'm doing my food shopping, i always have my earbuds in. How can we look for signs among our neighbors when we isolate ourselves?

I'm not watching. I gave up cable a year and a half ago. Really helps one to filter their news sources.

You're right. There are no easy answers. It's just that a society like that with such easy access to guns is a recipe for disaster, unfortunately. And even if gun laws were changed tomorrow, it would probably take generations to get out of that mindset of entitlement, and for stricter regulations to influence the number of illegal guns available on the streets. But it's better than doing nothing, no?

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

No one "makes a choice" to execute 5 year olds.

This is mental illness in a country where it's easier to access firearms than it is to get health care

Oh boy.

It was a choice. He murdered his mother, then he drove to the school, gained access because they knew him, and walked to the classroom, gunned down the teacher then murdered 18 kids and 8 adults. There was a choice in there. There were many choices. Each time he pulled that trigger he made a choice.

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by Steved1998

Oh boy.

It was a choice. He murdered his mother, then he drove to the school, gained access because they knew him, and walked to the classroom, gunned down the teacher then murdered 18 kids and 8 adults. There was a choice in there. There were many choices. Each time he pulled that trigger he made a choice.

Again, you really don't understand mental illness.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

I'm not watching. I gave up cable a year and a half ago. Really helps one to filter their news sources.

You're right. There are no easy answers. It's just that a society like that with such easy access to guns is a recipe for disaster, unfortunately. And even if gun laws were changed tomorrow, it would probably take generations to get out of that mindset of entitlement, and for stricter regulations to influence the number of illegal guns available on the streets. But it's better than doing nothing, no?

Oh definitely. I can also see the other side that is going to say, "we need more guns to prevent this!" I see no reason why people can't wait 2 weeks or a month or 2 months for a gun.

Reasonable

people won't disagree either.

It will take generations to change the mindset of this country, and even then I don't think things will change throughout the whole country. There will always be holdouts.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

Again, you really don't understand mental illness.

I understand free will.

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by Steved1998

I understand free will.

Some mentally ill people are not operating under free will, depending on the illness and severity, they're operating on delusions and psychoses.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

There are almost always warning signs, if people are looking for them. The problem is, other people exhibit similar or the same signs, but never escalate to something like this. So it's true that there is no way of telling who will snap and who won't...it would just help a lot if people would look out for each other more.

Yeah, I always wondered about that-every single time we hear stories like this someone always starts talking about all the signs to look out for. After the Virginia Tech shooting someone shared a story about how the gunman once, prior to the massacre, set a dorm room on fire (and apparently this didn't strike a big enough red flag to people somehow???). I hear the list so often I could probably quote it by now.

And yet every single time we go through the same, "They always seemed so nice/normal/quiet/etc." speech. VP is right that these people generally do tend to let off some pretty obvious signs that they are unstable. But you are right, too, Steved, that our isolation makes it harder to notice those signs.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

This is mental illness in a country where it's easier to access firearms than it is to get health care

THIS. It never fails to amaze me how people don't seem to see a problem with that setup.

As for the media, well, obviously this will be talked about, because it's kind of a huge story. And I think there is a way for the media to interview these people and discuss these issues in a rational, non-exploitative manner.

Unfortunately, I don't think our current media at large wants to do that or can do that.

[deep]

When a plane falls out of the sky we investigate to find out what went wrong, what part was defective. In a perfect world planes do not fall out of the sky, they are machines and can be made 100% reliable.
People are not machines, we can not expect them to function at 100 %.

People that have diminished capacities still know the difference between right and wrong,
We all have bad days, dark moods, problems, etc, to think that we can live carefree lives is not realistic. When things go badly one should get help or at worst kill themselves and no one else.

People that do these things should be held accountable, some consideration can be given to their circumstances, such as when a 14 year old murderer gets 40 years, instead of a life sentence.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Steved1998

Oh boy.

It was a choice. He murdered his mother, then he drove to the school, gained access because they knew him, and walked to the classroom, gunned down the teacher then murdered 18 kids and 8 adults. There was a choice in there. There were many choices. Each time he pulled that trigger he made a choice.

No.

You are dealing with a sick individual.

This is no shooting a cheating spouse. This is not murdering someone who owes you money.

This is a deep degree of mental illness. All that you are doing is trying to absolve yourself of feeling any guilt by pulling out a weak "it was a choice" explanation for these actions.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

Some mentally ill people are not operating under free will, depending on the illness and severity, they're operating on delusions and psychoses.

But this his hard to understand, so lets pretend they're just bad so we can explain this to ourselves.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by VintagePunk

Some mentally ill people are not operating under free will, depending on the illness and severity, they're operating on delusions and psychoses.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I feel that takes the responsibly away from the killer. What would stop someone from saying the voices made me do it/the medicine made me do it/ God told me to do it.

Ultimately people are responsible for their own actions, whether they made the choice in their right mind or not. He still pulled the trigger. Whatever caused him to do it is null the second he pulls the trigger. Maybe he could have gotten help, but I have to think that once you're in the situation, you have to make the choice to fire that gun. Look at people who try to commit suicide. The ones who are successful come out of nowhere. It's the ones that cut their writs with butter knives and make a show out of it and cry for help are the ones that will never do it.

[corianderstem]

Explanation =/= excuse

No one is even remotely suggesting having a mental illness excuses people from crimes they commit. Human nature leads us to look for an explanation.

I'm just putting that there for general conversation - I'm not going to get sucked into another unending argument with you about it.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

No.

You are dealing with a sick individual.

This is no shooting a cheating spouse. This is not murdering someone who owes you money.

This is a deep degree of mental illness. All that you are doing is trying to absolve yourself of feeling any guilt by pulling out a weak "it was a choice" explanation for these actions.

Why would I feel guilt? I didn't pull the trigger. I didn't know the guy, nor am I defending him.

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by corianderstem

Explanation =/= excuse

No one is even remotely suggesting having a mental illness excuses people from crimes they commit. Human nature leads us to look for an explanation.

I'm just putting that there for general conversation - I'm not going to get sucked into another unending argument with you about it.

It's an unending argument because there is no right or wrong position.