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Old 12-14-2012, 11:25 PM   #81
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It's got Steved's name on it, doesn't it?
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:28 PM   #82
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So diagnose this guy.
I'm smart enough, and have been educated by those wise enough, to realize that I don't have the training to do so.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:28 PM   #83
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I believe it needs to be easier to mandate some sort of treatment for those who are mentally ill. As it is, you can only hospitalize a person for 72 hours if they are proven to be a threat to themselves or others. And that is an emergent threat.
I published a paper on this very topic about 3 years ago. Agree with you.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:30 PM   #84
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I believe she meant involuntary committal.
Again, what has led her to believe that the presence or absence of state-sanctioned involuntary committal would have been meaningful to this case, or of other shootings?

This is an honest question, I'm curious about practical solutions and this has come up before with Gabby Giffords without a compelling connection being drawn, so hopefully it can happen here. Did people suspect the shooter was mentally ill, but were unable to do anything?
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:30 PM   #85
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This is a very poorly written and timed joke or parody, right? Right?
I think so...I think it's a parody thing. I hope, anyway.

And really, to all those who are doing the "devil's advocate" thing, maybe give it a rest today and just be honest and genuine with your comments for a change? Not really in the mood to play silly games.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:31 PM   #86
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It's got Steved's name on it, doesn't it?
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:32 PM   #87
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So diagnose this guy.
It's too early to talk about this without knowing 1) his medical history or 2) his motive.

People make choices because one option benefits them over the other. At present, we don't know what those options were or what he was thinking. He may not have been thinking. We may not be able to apply logic to his situation at all.

No amount of training can help you diagnose this guy.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:37 PM   #88
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I'm smart enough, and have been educated by those wise enough, to realize that I don't have the training to do so.
I can't diagnose him, but I can judge a child killer.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post

It's too early to talk about this without knowing 1) his medical history or 2) his motive.

People make choices because one option benefits them over the other. At present, we don't know what those options were or what he was thinking. He may not have been thinking. We may not be able to apply logic to his situation at all.

No amount of training can help you diagnose this guy.
Some people are just evil. He made a choice to turn a gun on a scared, cowering innocent child and pull the trigger. And do it again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:44 PM   #90
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I can't diagnose him, but I can judge a child killer.
Awesome. That doesn't solve the problem on any fundamental level beyond that one individual though, does it?
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:45 PM   #91
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edit- nevermind
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:50 PM   #92
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Take a second to rethink presumptive views:

How can we explain shootings if we don’t report on mental illness? | Poynter.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:51 PM   #93
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Can this thread not go straight to the shitter?

Thanks.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:55 PM   #94
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It's got Steved's name on it, doesn't it?
I adopted an online persona at the end of high school in the late 90s that I never dropped. I've really played it up on this site over the last couple of years, because, well what the hell.

I'm dead serious right now. This is me, and I'm pissed at what this scumbag did. I taught in an elementary school last year. How could you turn a gun on an innocent child? I'm also appalled that you people are making excuses for him. I'm shocked that you people are using mental illness as an excuse to justify what he did. Oh if he would have just gotten help this would have never happened! Give me a break! Some people can't be helped. Some people are beyond help.

I respect people who work in the mental health field (VP), but I disagree.There are some people who are evil and can't be helped. Those are the people who never cross your path (or any other therapist). Those are the people who fly under the radar their whole life. Those are the people that have neighbors that say, "he was so quiet!" The withdrawn and quiet types. The Ted Bundys, the Jeffery Dahmers, the Greenriver Killers, the Hitlers, and Stalins, Georges Rutagandas, and Pol Pots. There is evil in this world. Some people are a lost cause...
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:56 PM   #95
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Can this thread not go straight to the shitter?

Thanks.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:05 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Steved1998 View Post
I adopted an online persona at the end of high school in the late 90s that I never dropped. I've really played it up on this site over the last couple of years, because, well what the hell.
I'm dead serious right now. This is me, and I'm pissed at what this scumbag did. I taught in an elementary school last year. How could you turn a gun on an innocent child? I'm also appalled that you people are making excuses for him. I'm shocked that you people are using mental illness as an excuse to justify what he did. Oh if he would have just gotten help this would have never happened! Give me a break! Some people can't be helped. Some people are beyond help.

I respect people who work in the mental health field (VP), but I disagree.There are some people who are evil and can't be helped. Those are the people who never cross your path (or any other therapist). Those are the people who fly under the radar their whole life. Those are the people that have neighbors that say, "he was so quiet!" The withdrawn and quiet types. The Ted Bundys, the Jeffery Dahmers, the Greenriver Killers, the Hitlers, and Stalins, Georges Rutagandas, and Pol Pots. There is evil in this world. Some people are a lost cause...
Your high school persona is obnoxious. I much prefer this post.

Thanks for the respect. I'm not currently working in the field, but do have a high degree of interest, and hope to go to grad school in the area some day.

I completely get your anger. I feel it too. But I can also detach myself a little and wonder what happened to the guy to have him come to this - not simply to feel sympathy for him, but in the interest of treating people like him, and preventing this from happening again.

I don't have all the answers obviously, but I don't believe in "pure evil"...I'm atheist, and I don't believe in pure good, either. Just imperfect humans, some more imperfect than others. And I wish society were better in helping those who need it. And other than that, I'm way too sad to debate it further tonight. I wish we could all just hug those parents, and maybe have a little compassion for those who are suffering mentally, tonight. That's all.

Eta - guns don't help, either. Guns and crazy don't mix. And if the sane have to be deprived of or work a little harder to get legitimate guns, so be it, it's a minuscule price to pay.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:08 AM   #97
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Honestly, Steved, on a gut level I'm totally with you. I have immense sympathy and compassion for people who are mentally ill. I can't imagine what it's like to go through the sorts of things they do, and definitely think the stigma and shame around it needs to stop, and think the fact that they have to fight to get adequate care is absolutely appalling.

But most mentally ill people also don't go on murderous rampages. So it may sound cold, it may sound heartless, but the moment this guy decided to take out all those kids, I kind of stopped showing any sympathy for whatever he was going through. Innocent people shouldn't have to die as a result of whatever personal problems someone is dealing with. I know, as Cori noted, that mentally ill people generally aren't in a position to properly rationalize things like that, but still, I look at this and just see the obvious fact that there was no reason all those people had to die today. None whatsoever. And I do think that there are rare cases where there are some people who just cannot be helped. I think they were born with things not wired right in their brains. What we should do with people in those instances, I don't know. But I think it is a sad reality we may have to come to terms with in some cases.

All of that being said, however, hard as it is, scary as it is, disturbing as it is, I do think it is worthwhile to try and understand the other side. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on mental illness by any stretch, but I do know it's a very complex issue, which is probably one of the reasons we don't talk about it so much after these situations. Where do you even begin with this conversation? And I say all the stuff above about how I hold no sympathy for him, but then I feel bad for that because then we associate all mentally ill people with things like this and we just add to the stigma of the issue at large with that line of thinking.

It's a very difficult situation, and I can easily see both sides here.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:13 AM   #98
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Your high school persona is obnoxious. I much prefer this post.

Thanks for the respect. I'm not currently working in the field, but do have a high degree of interest, and hope to go to grad school in the area some day.

I completely get your anger. I feel it too. But I can also detach myself a little and wonder what happened to the guy to have him come to this - not simply to feel sympathy for him, but in the interest of treating people like him, and preventing this from happening again.

I don't have all the answers obviously, but I don't believe in "pure evil"...I'm atheist, and I don't believe in pure good, either. Just imperfect humans, some more imperfect than others. And I wish society were better in helping those who need it. And other than that, I'm way too sad to debate it further tonight. I wish we could all just hug those parents, and maybe have a little compassion for those who are suffering mentally, tonight. That's all.

Eta - guns don't help, either. Guns and crazy don't mix. And if the sane have to be deprived of or work a little harder to get legitimate guns, so be it, it's a minuscule price to pay.
That is where we differ, I can feel empathy for people, but in this case, I can only feel it for the kids that were scared as he barged into their classroom.

A perfect society would give help to all who need it, but what would happen if he never sought help? What would happen if no one ever recognized the signs?

If people want guns, they'll get them. I could drive down to Newark and buy a handgun off the street if I want tonight. All the laws in the world won't stop people from getting them if they really want them.

The more kids they put on TV that describe what happened. The more pissed I become. Just let them mourn! They're already going to be scarred for life.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:18 AM   #99
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If people want guns, they'll get them. I could drive down to Newark and buy a handgun off the street if I want tonight.
That's one of your major problems, right there. Other countries don't have that ease of access.

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The more kids they put on TV that describe what happened. The more pissed I become. Just let them mourn! They're already going to be scarred for life.
Again, another societal problem, the media shouldn't be putting kids on tv, but it's always a battle for who will be the first to report, who will get the higher ratings...
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:19 AM   #100
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Honestly, Steved, on a gut level I'm totally with you. I have immense sympathy and compassion for people who are mentally ill. I can't imagine what it's like to go through the sorts of things they do, and definitely think the stigma and shame around it needs to stop, and think the fact that they have to fight to get adequate care is absolutely appalling.

But most mentally ill people also don't go on murderous rampages. So it may sound cold, it may sound heartless, but the moment this guy decided to take out all those kids, I kind of stopped showing any sympathy for whatever he was going through. Innocent people shouldn't have to die as a result of whatever personal problems someone is dealing with. I know, as Cori noted, that mentally ill people generally aren't in a position to properly rationalize things like that, but still, I look at this and just see the obvious fact that there was no reason all those people had to die today. None whatsoever. And I do think that there are rare cases where there are some people who just cannot be helped. I think they were born with things not wired right in their brains. What we should do with people in those instances, I don't know. But I think it is a sad reality we may have to come to terms with in some cases.

All of that being said, however, hard as it is, scary as it is, disturbing as it is, I do think it is worthwhile to try and understand the other side. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on mental illness by any stretch, but I do know it's a very complex issue, which is probably one of the reasons we don't talk about it so much after these situations. Where do you even begin with this conversation? And I say all the stuff above about how I hold no sympathy for him, but then I feel bad for that because then we associate all mentally ill people with things like this and we just add to the stigma of the issue at large with that line of thinking.

It's a very difficult situation, and I can easily see both sides here.
I agree! Mentally ill people don't go on rampages.. It's the ones that you don't see coming..The ones that aren't wired right. Those are the ones that come out of no where. The Virginia Tech Killer and all those serial killers. The ones that hide it, that won't get help even if it was available. What can you do? That's what is scary. There is nothing you can do, no signs. They hide it. There maybe signs when they're young, but once they're old enough, they hide it. In a perfect world, everyone would get the help and support they need. Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world.

I know the bible teaches, "Turn the other cheek and forgive and don't judge and all that", but not in this case.
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