Mass Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Eighties

1. It's more so, the extent of them robbing us what we already have and how much more will they take ?

What have "they" robbed you of?

Originally Posted by Eighties

2. That's what people use a gun for sometimes, does everything we do have to be in the constitution to be protected ?

Hey, that was your premise, you used those words. It's the NRA's premise. It's the Right's premise. So yeah, stand by your own premise.

Originally Posted by Eighties

3. The ability to recover from a missed shot more effectively

That doesn't answer a damn thing, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

Originally Posted by Eighties

4. Look at the Vietnam war, we lost to guys with AK-47's and no air power of any sort. Look at the current war we are in now ! we can hardly kill people in an OPEN desert. We have forest, hills, and the populous itself to hide in.. imagine that headache. Look at the news, the Syrians started out with Ak-47. Do some research on guerrilla warfare. The flag of Mozambique has an AK-47 on it because of the important role it played in their revolution.

Look at what ALL of those things have in common:

THEIR OWN TURF!!!

Guess what the government has control over?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It's not though. The only real difference is that America had guns.

It is the guns. They are a public health and safety issue.

Well you're more violent than your handsome neighbours to the north, that's for sure

[Eighties]

Originally Posted by BVS

What have "they" robbed you of?

Hey, that was your premise, you used those words. It's the NRA's premise. It's the Right's premise. So yeah, stand by your own premise.

That doesn't answer a damn thing, and I'm pretty sure you know that.
Look at what ALL of those things have in common:

THEIR OWN TURF!!!

Guess what the government has control over?

This isn't our own Turf ? Syrian's are fighting on "their governments turf" and just about every type of civil and revolutionary war was on ground the government knows and understands. the government can know every hill and tree in the US but that's not going to help them at all with a guerrilla army.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Well you're more violent than your handsome neighbours to the north, that's for sure

Our who to the where?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Eighties

This isn't our own Turf ? Syrian's are fighting on "their governments turf" and just about every type of civil and revolutionary war was on ground the government knows and understands. the government can know every hill and tree in the US but that's not going to help them at all with a guerrilla army.

And there are a bunch of dead 6 year olds in Newtown who really don't give a shit about your Red Fawn fantasies.

I'd like to not get shot by you, rather than worry about some fantastical scenario.

[Caleb8844]

Originally Posted by BVS

What have "they" robbed you of?

I can't speak for Eighties, but what I think many are afraid of is the slow encroachment of the government on another one of our amendment freedoms. Before someone shouts "conspiracy theory!" hear me out: it's not unprecedented. Other amendments have already been trampled over well and good. The Patriot act essentially disregards the fourth amendment. NDAA 2012 completely ignores the 6th. Let's not even mention the drone strikes on American citizens abroad. THAT'S what people feel "they've" taken from us.

Originally Posted by BVS

hey, that was your premise, you used those words. It's the NRA's premise. It's the Right's premise. So yeah, stand by your own premise.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The constitution does not state what the guns may be used for, or what they may not. The ninth amendment states that rights not enumerated are not withheld. So yes, it's fair to say that no, the constitution need not mention every acceptable use for a gun.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Our who to the where?

Oh, nothing. Just a little insignificant bit of land that's not America

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Oh, nothing. Just a little insignificant bit of land that's not America

You make a nice hat.

And from Wikipedia:

Comparison of homicide statistics of 9 different countries[citation needed]
Comparing crime rates between countries is difficult due to the differences in jurisprudence, reporting and crime classifications. National crime statistics are in reality statistics of only selected crime types. Data is collected through various surveying methods that have previously ranged between 15% and 100% coverage of the data. A 2001 Statistics Canada study concluded that comparisons with the U.S. on homicide rates were the most reliable. Comparison of rates for six lesser incident crimes was considered possible but subject to more difficulty of interpretation. For example, types of assaults receive different classifications and laws in Canada and the US, making comparisons more difficult than homicides. At the time, the U.S. crime of aggravated assault could be compared to the sum of three Canadian crimes (aggravated assault, assault with a weapon, and attempted murder). This comparison had a predicted bias that would inflate the Canadian numbers by only 0.1%. The study also concluded that directly comparing the two countries' reported total crime rate (i.e. total selected crimes) was "inappropriate" since the totals include the problem data sets as well as the usable sets.[15] For reasons like these, homicides have been favored in international studies looking for predictors of crime rates (predictors like economic inequality).

United States

Much study has been done of the comparative experience and policies of Canada with its southern neighbour the United States, and this is a topic of intense discussion within Canada.

Historically, the violent crime rate in Canada is lower than that of the U.S. and this continues to be the case. For example, in 2000 the United States' rate for robberies was 65 percent higher, its rate for aggravated assault was more than double and its murder rate was triple that of Canada. However, the rate of some property crime types is lower in the U.S. than in Canada. For example, in 2006, the rates of vehicle theft were 22% higher in Canada than in the US.[16] Since violent crimes are a smaller fraction of all crimes, the difference between the two countries is less than the homicide rate might make it seem, and the overall rates are generally close (see Crime in the United States).[citation needed]

Furthermore, in recent years,[when?] the gap in violent crime rates between the United States and Canada has narrowed due to a precipitous drop in the violent crime rate in the U.S. For example, while the aggravated assault rate declined for most of 1990s in the U.S. and was 324 per 100,000 in 2000, the aggravated assault rate in Canada remained relatively steady throughout and was 143 per 100,000 in 2000. In other areas, the U.S. had a faster decline. For instance, whereas the murder rate in Canada declined by 36% between 1991 and 2004, the U.S. murder rate declined by 44%. [17] Both Saskatoon and Regina consistently have violent crime rates that would place them among the 10 most violent cities in the US, and often individually exceed larger US centres in terms of total numbers for Aggravated Assaults and Robbery.[citation needed]

The homicide rate in Canada peaked in 1975 at 3.03 per 100,000 and has dropped since then; it reached lower peaks in 1985 (2.72) and 1991 (2.69). It reached a post-1970 low of 1.73 in 2003. The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 2.52, between 1977 and 1983 it was 2.67, between 1984 and 1990 it was 2.41, between 1991 and 1997 it was 2.23 and between 1998 to 2004 it was 1.82.[18] The attempted homicide rate has fallen at a faster rate than the homicide rate.[19]

By comparison, the homicide rate in the U.S. reached 10.1 per 100,000 in 1974, peaked in 1980 at 10.7 and reached a lower peak in 1991 (10.5). The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 9.4, between 1977 and 1983 it was 9.6, between 1984 and 1990 it was 9, between 1991 and 1997 it was 9.2 and between 1998 and 2004 it was 6.3. In 2004, the murder rate in the U.S. dipped below 6 per 100,000, for the first time since 1966, and as of 2010 stood at 4.8 per 100,000 [17]

Approximately 70 percent of the total murders in the U.S. are committed with firearms, versus about 30 percent in Canada.[20]

That last sentence is telling.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Eighties

This isn't our own Turf ?

Wow dude, you missed that point by miles...

Originally Posted by Eighties

the government can know every hill and tree in the US but that's not going to help them at all with a guerrilla army.

Really? You and your buddies are going to take on the military with your semi-automatics when your water, phone, internet, and food sources have been cut off and they have tanks, machine guns, IT, and chemical weapons?

This whole idea that a tyranny in the U.S. is going to be taken over by guns is so antiquated.

[Jive Turkey]

If they need to take over the government, can't they just get those guns again from the same place all the bad guys get them? I thought those were difference places

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by BVS

Wow dude, you missed that point by miles...

Really? You and your buddies are going to take on the military with your semi-automatics when your water, phone, internet, and food sources have been cut off and they have tanks, machine guns, IT, and chemical weapons?

This whole idea that a tyranny in the U.S. is going to be taken over by guns is so antiquated.

Surely the idea that there will be a tyranny IN THE FIRST PLACE is antiquated?? Obama and his team are hustled in the white house, discussing plans to deploy government troops into every home and start marching them into labour camps?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Caleb8844

I can't speak for Eighties, but what I think many are afraid of is the slow encroachment of the government on another one of our amendment freedoms. Before someone shouts "conspiracy theory!" hear me out: it's not unprecedented. Other amendments have already been trampled over well and good. The Patriot act essentially disregards the fourth amendment. NDAA 2012 completely ignores the 6th. Let's not even mention the drone strikes on American citizens abroad. THAT'S what people feel "they've" taken from us.

You can join all of those that have been yelling this since the inception of our country. When there is concrete evidence, then let's act as a civilized society and speak our voice, that's how the system is set up.

Originally Posted by Caleb8844

The constitution does not state what the guns may be used for, or what they may not. The ninth amendment states that rights not enumerated are not withheld. So yes, it's fair to say that no, the constitution need not mention every acceptable use for a gun.

Oh wow, someone coached you on semantics. The Constitution is pretty clear as to the intent and time period.

[Jive Turkey]

And the tone was so nice in here earlier

[Eighties]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

And there are a bunch of dead 6 year olds in Newtown who really don't give a shit about your Red Fawn fantasies.

I'd like to not get shot by you, rather than worry about some fantastical scenario.

Do people even look in history books anymore ?!?! It's not an insane concept that governments turn bad and the people rebel for their freedom. The kids in newtone didn't die by my hands, they died by someone with a mental problem and stolen weapons. And I really don't give a shit about your rainbows, everyone holding hands , and the government is my lover fantasy world.

[LemonMelon]

lol great avatar, I had no idea what your position was.

 

Fallout 3 is fucking brilliant, of course.

[Eighties]

Originally Posted by BVS

Wow dude, you missed that point by miles...

Really? You and your buddies are going to take on the military with your semi-automatics when your water, phone, internet, and food sources have been cut off and they have tanks, machine guns, IT, and chemical weapons?

This whole idea that a tyranny in the U.S. is going to be taken over by guns is so antiquated.

Every rebellion starts out the same and the rifle in your hands is your primary tool. Please tell me how rain is going to stop falling and creeks will stop flowing because of the governments power. phone and internet ? I can go to an internet cafe and my IP address will instantly change. You apparently haven't done any research on gorilla warfare, know anything about survival, or warfare. I wonder if you know chemical weapons have been against international law since WW1. Tanks can't go in woods, machine guns are just over powered rifles, if an organized rebellion where to form they could probably buy heavy weapons from central america. Also do you realize how effective an IED is ? also how easy it is to make a home made bomb ? Also i like to be independent and able to hold my own. When a hurricane hits and society shuts down, have fun defending your roaring generator with a poo gun. People are going to want to steal your resources for survival. When you call 911 (if your phone has power) the police will not arrive.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Eighties

Do people even look in history books anymore ?!?! It's not an insane concept that governments turn bad and the people rebel for their freedom. The kids in newtone didn't die by my hands, they died by someone with a mental problem and stolen weapons. And I really don't give a shit about your rainbows, everyone holding hands , and the government is my lover fantasy world.

Just so we're clear: these kids (and a hundred thousand or so others) are necessary collateral damage so that you can keep paranoid delusion where you're the awesome guy with the gun who stands up against The Robots.

[Eighties]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

lol great avatar, I had no idea what your position was.

 

Fallout 3 is fucking brilliant, of course.

[Popmartijn]

Originally Posted by Eighties

Do people even look in history books anymore ?!?! It's not an insane concept that governments turn bad and the people rebel for their freedom.

"So this is what it is. Their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from addressing our actual dystopic present. We can’t even begin to address 30,000 gun deaths that are actually, in reality, happening in this country every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the rise of imaginary Hitler."

[Eighties]

Originally Posted by Popmartijn

"So this is what it is. Their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from addressing our actual dystopic present. We can’t even begin to address 30,000 gun deaths that are actually, in reality, happening in this country every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the rise of imaginary Hitler."

30,000 gun deaths do not happen from people with my mind set, it comes from people on drugs, mental problems, in gangs, and etc. Guns don't kill people, people kill people; that is why i'm all for it being tougher to get guns but not make the gun itself illegal.