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Old 12-14-2012, 06:13 PM   #41
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Holy fucking shit, people. Not even sure what to say after waking up to this sort of news.

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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
The thing about tightening gun control is that there's got to be a way to prevent illegal sales of gun. It is possible to go online and get a gun, just like buying drugs off the internet. I wouldn't be surprise if that is how this psycho got his firearms.
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Originally Posted by trojanchick99 View Post
Actually, I would be surprised if those guns and ammo weren't legally bought. In the majority of these types of massacres, the weaponry has been obtained legally.
What trojanchick said. We've had tight gun control laws in Australia ever since the Port Arthur massacre of 1996 (which could be seen as the culmination of violent gun crime/massacres that had been building since the eighties). No comparable massacres have occurred since then, whether with legally or illegally purchased guns. Same goes for New Zealand after gun laws were strengthened in response to the Aramoana massacre of 1990. Without doing any research I can only speak from my knowledge of those two countries, but it's telling and I would expect to find similar outcomes in other Western countries.

Gun control works. The gun lobby in the US needs to wake up to this fact. Our tighter gun laws don't stop people who are legitimate hunters or target shooters or whatever from pursuing their hobby, but we sure as hell don't have heaps of nutters - and rest assurred we aren't short on nutters - running around causing death and mayhem with weaponry only the military should ever have a just reason to possess.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:17 PM   #42
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Why are some parents allowing their kids who were there to be interviewed by the media? Right outside the school, after it happened. Not my place to judge but I just don't get it.
Maybe the parents are in shock and still trying to get a handle on the chaos.

I have no problem aiming all my disdain for the media.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:32 PM   #43
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When comparing the U.S. to other Western democracies, how many of these other countries have the right to bear arms enshrined in their Constitution?

I think that adds a different dynamic to this discussion.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:35 PM   #44
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FUCK.

Fucking hell goddamnit.

I am so pissed off right now. We NEED to do something about this. NOW. I'm sick and tired of this shit.

Obama was near tears during his conference. My thoughts exactly.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:38 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
When comparing the U.S. to other Western democracies, how many of these other countries have the right to bear arms enshrined in their Constitution?

I think that adds a different dynamic to this discussion.
Yes, it does.

But let's not forget that the current permissive nature to bear arms comes from a particularly tortured interpretation of the 2nd amendment.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:39 PM   #46
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Wow, this is gut-wrenching to read about. I like Bloomberg's statement. Do something. This makes me sick.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:55 PM   #47
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Ugh. Yeah, that's something that desperately needs to be ironed out now. I'm pretty darn sure the 2nd Amendment does NOT mean that every half-brained idiot deserves to own a gun/should have an arsenal of them at their disposal. There is absolutely no logical reason your average citizen should have a mass collection of guns, nor is there any logical reason why your average citizen should have guns that are more in line with the kind of thing you'd see in the military.

Your average citizen can make do with a simple hunting rifle and maybe a handgun if they absolutely feel they need to have protection in the house. That's it. That's all the more you need. And you need to have a license, you need to have a thorough background check, mental evaluation, all that stuff. And if you commit even one crime with your gun, you lose it. If you can't prove yourself to be responsible with a gun, you don't deserve to have one.

It sickens me that daring to suggest that some people don't deserve to own guns means you're anti-Republican or some such BS. This is not a Republican/Democrat issue, this is a, "STOP FUCKING SHOOTING PEOPLE FOR NO REASON" issue.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:56 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trojanchick99 View Post
Actually, I would be surprised if those guns and ammo weren't legally bought. In the majority of these types of massacres, the weaponry has been obtained legally.
A graph to support your viewpoint.
Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States



Would stricter gun control have prevented all those legal sales? Probably not. Would in that case there have been more illegally obtained weapons being used? Probably. But I think the overal # of shootings would've been (much) lower.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:04 PM   #49
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This is just terrible. It makes me sick, it makes me angry, it makes me sad. When will these massacres end? Innocent children killed by sick-minded people. That's my opinion, but wow, it's just core-shaking.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:11 PM   #50
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One of my good friend's cousin was killed. I don't even know how to respond.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:23 PM   #51
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While mental health and gun control are absolutely the two key components to begin addressing this issue, I have to think our problems run much deeper than both.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:24 PM   #52
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:33 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
Ugh. Yeah, that's something that desperately needs to be ironed out now. I'm pretty darn sure the 2nd Amendment does NOT mean that every half-brained idiot deserves to own a gun/should have an arsenal of them at their disposal. There is absolutely no logical reason your average citizen should have a mass collection of guns, nor is there any logical reason why your average citizen should have guns that are more in line with the kind of thing you'd see in the military.

Your average citizen can make do with a simple hunting rifle and maybe a handgun if they absolutely feel they need to have protection in the house. That's it. That's all the more you need. And you need to have a license, you need to have a thorough background check, mental evaluation, all that stuff. And if you commit even one crime with your gun, you lose it. If you can't prove yourself to be responsible with a gun, you don't deserve to have one.

It sickens me that daring to suggest that some people don't deserve to own guns means you're anti-Republican or some such BS. This is not a Republican/Democrat issue, this is a, "STOP FUCKING SHOOTING PEOPLE FOR NO REASON" issue.
Not that I disagree with you about any of this, but allegedly at least two of the guns were registered to his mother. Don't know if that's true of course, but if it is they didn't help her. Obviously. And tragically, given what he did with them.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:45 PM   #54
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Obviously, the deeper issue here is not guns. But it's certainly easier to push states to require psychiatric evaluations with every firearm license (and renewal thereof) than it is to make well every mentally ill young person in the country.

The people pushing for complete gun bans mean well but clearly have no idea what the implications of it would be. Small restrictions give precedent for larger ones if they're shown to be beneficial. No need to incite a revolution and divert attention away from the good it would do in the long-term.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:53 PM   #55
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there's a particular obliviousness to recognizing crimes of passion that bugs me, which is when some well-meaning individual sits down and pounds out a snappy, logical sentence, like

"if somebody really wants to do something wrong, simply making it illegal won't stop them"

"any motivated individual can find a way to commit suicide, so why bother?"

these people have taken physics 101 and now want to build a space shuttle

Quote:
In Israel, it used to be that all soldiers would take the guns home with them. Now they have to leave them on base. Over the years they’ve done this — it began, I think, in 2006 — there’s been a 60 percent decrease in suicide on weekends among IDS soldiers. And it did not correspond to an increase in weekday suicide. People think suicide is an impulse that exists and builds. This shows that doesn’t happen. The impulse to suicide is transitory. Someone with access to a gun at that moment may commit suicide, but if not, they may not.
link

if we ever needed proof, humans are not rational creatures. "dumb" laws can have smart effects.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:55 PM   #56
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You also shouldn't be allowed to buy ammo on the internet, or guns in Wal-Mart. I'm sure gun owners would be glad to go through a psych evaluation to get them, and buy them at a regular gun shop.

What do they do right now anyway? Is it just a background check and that's it?

In this case, they were apparently the mom's guns, so he still could have gotten them. But that's another thing....you have a kid with problem, you shouldn't keep guns around. Or you should send the kid to an institution.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:10 PM   #57
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Exactly, Penny. Yes, some people will always find a way around even the tightest laws. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try and change it so that people have much more difficulty acquiring guns. If we can catch them as they're trying to go through the process, maybe we can stop them ahead of time. And again, if she had a bunch of guns in her house, doesn't matter whether anyone in her family had a mental illness or not, WHY does she need to have all those guns to begin with?

No argument that mental illness is another issue that desperately should be addressed, too, though, absolutely. I hear about all the cuts that are made to it every year, and how they can't afford to keep people longer/treat them the way they should be treated (and then that can get into the healthcare issue-should this stuff be covered? I'd say so)...it's so frustrating.

Also, we really should tell the NRA to butt out on this issue for once. Everyone always bows down to them in the end, it'd be nice if someone stood up to that lobby for once.

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One of my good friend's cousin was killed. I don't even know how to respond.
My god. I'm so sorry to hear that. My condolances to your friend.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:15 PM   #58
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Yeah, I also think people feel a stigma, like they are embarrassed if they have a kid in a mental hospital. A woman who lives on the street said he was "deeply troubled" and the mother was apparently "rigid" - whatever that means, strict I guess?

From the looks of it, they had money, so it makes you wonder why he wouldn't be somewhere else.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:50 PM   #59
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Absolutely, the stigma's still there. It's embarrassing, shameful, scary, all that stuff.

But you know, if it comes down to feeling embarrassed or ashamed at going into a mental institution versus being untreated and going on a murderous rampage, I think it's pretty damn obvious which of the two scenarios I'm more willing to deal with.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:20 PM   #60
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You could argue that many people in the throes of a serious mental illness aren't really going to be able to make that rational decision.
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